INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#205 GddZ
Conflicts within works council committees
Conflict actor works council. Part 1
In conversation with lawyer Antje Burmester
Antje BurmesterLawyer, specialist in labour law, mediator (Viadrina Frankfurt); expert in collective labour law conflicts.
Small series: Works council as a conflict actor
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Contents
Chapter:
0:12 – Introduction to conflicts in the workplace
4:48 – The role of works councils
11:21 – Challenges of works council work
18:12 – Conflicts within the committees
24:33 – Gender distribution in the works council
29:08 – The influence of young people in the works council
35:41 – Digital challenges in the boardroom
41:04 – Exempted works councils and their dynamics
48:49 – Personal conflicts and their intensity
58:04 – Conclusion and outlook on future topics
Summary of content
In this episode of the „Gut durch die Zeit“ podcast, I focus on the topic of mediation and conflict in the workplace, particularly in the context of works councils. I have invited labour law expert and mediator Antje Burmester to talk to me about the role and challenges of works council members in conflict resolution. We are launching a series of discussions in which we will examine the various lines of conflict that arise within works council bodies and between them and company management.
We shed light on how legal framework conditions, different interests and dynamics within committees can influence conflicts. Antje talks about her many years of experience in working with works councils and shows how different approaches to conflicts not only characterise the solution, but also the relationship between the works councils and the management. A central topic is the internal conflicts within the committees that arise when elected works councils represent different views and interests and how these are often carried out under the guise of harmony.
Antje reports on the challenges that arise when works councils have a heterogeneous composition in their committees and how different backgrounds, but also personal animosities, lead to conflicts. We discuss that mediation in such cases should not only be focussed on finding solutions, but must also promote understanding for the individual perspectives and experiences of the committee members. We also explore the different roles of full-time and voluntary works council members and how this affects their conflict culture.
Another focus is the importance of communication within the committees and between the works councils and the company management. We agree that understanding the legal framework and the options available to them is critical to managing conflict effectively. Antje shares her insights on how a slow and respectful approach is necessary to build trust and encourage genuine dialogue.
Our conversation concludes with a look ahead to the next episode, in which we will look in more depth at the conflicts between works council committees within an organisation. This topic is also an important challenge, as different bodies may have different approaches, which can lead to further tensions within the organisation.
Complete transcription
[0:00]And the personal Conflict, the personal Rubbing, the personal Leg placement or like this, there gives it Yes manifold Possibilities in the operational Everyday life,
[0:12]
Introduction to conflicts in the workplace
[0:11]stands absolute in the Foreground. And that, think me, also something different Approaches.
[0:18]Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time, the Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting, a Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence. Today goes it at Mediation or in the Core at Conflicts on Workplace. And although want we today especially Companies in the View take, in those Works councils exist and act. And exactly there the Works Council as Field of conflict and Conflict actor in one small Series starting under the Magnifying glass take. Today with the Centre of gravity Conflicts in Works council committees, when so there selected Works councils with each other to do get, something on the Legs place want, Co-determination revitalise want and itself then natural also in Conflicts with each other and among each other go. And at this Topic and so that also these small Series competent Accompanying here in the Podcast studio to begin, have I me one Expert for Labour law and Mediation invited. I welcome here Mrs Antje Burmeester. Hello Antje. Hello Sascha.
[1:39]I have already a little so indicated, we want the one small Series build up, because we with Works councils Yes whole different Conflict management experience make can. Once within from Committees between the individual Works council members, then natural also between Committees. In larger Company units are several Committees on different Locations with different Tasks entrusted, the also in Conflicts advised can among each other or different Interests have. Keyword Site works councils, General Works Councils, Group Works Councils, watch we us everything in the Individuals to. And natural the Conflict line, the one on most likely in the View has, Works Council and Management, Works Council and HR, but also Works Council and Representative body for severely disabled persons to the Example or other Stakeholders still in Company. Before we the in the Individuals today Start and then continue, first to you, Specialist lawyer for Labour law. Mediator, but probably also still much around it. Antje, what connects you with the Topic and what makes you from as Lawyer and Mediator?
[2:56]I think, as Lawyer makes me from, that I the Labour law since many years from very different Perspectives illuminate, what itself therein shows, that I none, like so often to be found, Employer or Employees or Works council lawyer am, but I am one for all. The is for me very appealing, all various Perspectives also in the Representation of interests to supervise. In the Course the years learns one very, very much about the different Kind and Wise of the Handling with conflicts, about the different Kind and Wise to communicate in conflicts. And there is it for me one very beautiful Opportunity, the Legal, the specialised Labour law and the Mediative with each other to connect. The are already times whole many Aspects. And like succeeds it you, that you both from Employer side approachable and interesting are as Conflict counsellor, Lawyer or Mediator, as also for Works councils? Because it is Relative fast and widespread, that one but for one Page appears and that one for the other Page then like burnt is. Also when one the even not wants, but happens the but right fast. How succeeds you that?
[4:18]We live Yes all as Lawyers respectively as Mediators from Recommendations. I think, that in the Course the years a certain Trust in mine Person originated is, to say, OK, the is someone, the not in one Warehouse persists, but the is someone, the good the other Warehouse also perceives.
[4:48]
The role of works councils
[4:42]Because it goes Yes always first times at Perception, at Listen, at possibly also Translate. It are Yes partly different Language levels, in those the Counterparties, says I now times, on the road are. And I think, there runs much about Recommendation and there one me then perhaps times in one specific Situation experienced has itself or one itself enquired and says, who is the actually, like makes the that? And that then said becomes, yes, the was in Order, there have we us seen, there have we us belongs to felt. And leads the also in addition, that you Enquiries then Reject must, because you the Impression have, it stores you to very on the one Page in, where you Danger run, so to speak Yes but a Reputation or a Image.
[5:28]That you first times listen. So one must somehow so that calculate, that you also the Voice the Opposite page, the not in the Room is, perhaps with one Individual counselling then with take over and say, to consider is already also that. So the Freedom take I me quite. I hold the also for very, very important. Offside from all more own Interests, to the Motto very interesting Question, very interesting Environment, perhaps also financial interesting, then also to decide, am I there the Correct or am I it straight not, because I in one certain Discussion not sufficient Neutral be can. The can quite occur and I try there also actually very clear first times with me to deal with and then just as clear but also with the Enquirer to deal with and say, equal am I in this Case actually not the Correct. Attempts natural then also Alternatives to open, like we the all do, when we Enquiries get. And perhaps still so one last Question, before we then to the Matter come also. You are recognised as Lawyer and as Mediator. Which Significance has the with the Enquiries, the you reach, from Reasons?
[6:54]Works councils and Employer side, that you both as also are. So will you so to speak as Mediators requested and so that then even for labour law Counselling so to speak then burnt, when the once in the Direction goes or reversed, that one says, Human, we need actually one Lawyer, Find it but great, that them also somehow benevolent talk can. Yes, whereby I would it not on Benevolent talk, when we the reduce want. But the is actually whole, whole, whole predominantly the Path. So in Question, we need one Counsellor for the Labour law in the Works constitution law and the are then mostly really also Enquiries on Works Council side. Us is but possibly as Works Council already very located or but the Employer side, the behind it stands, the plays Yes here one important Role, because them also mine Costs then carry must, says, yes, the plays then already one Role, whether someone one Mediation context, one Mediation background has and the is quite from Advantage. But it is by no means like this, that the Path vice versa so frequently trodden becomes. The can I not say. So that one says, OK, we come on them to from their Mediation expertise here and take the labour law Expertise with pleasure with. No, the other way round.
[8:07]Yes, with you could I me the also good introduce, because you Yes also so to speak really also flagged out are as Lawyer and Specialist lawyer. I for mine Part take I there Yes in the Representation very back. So with me must one already more accurate look, that one still the Lawyer recognises, because I even Legal advice in the narrower Senses actually avoid and already even none Process management, but me there exclusively as Mediator present. Therefore come with me the Enquiries already rather natural on the Mediation page and there have I natural also so a little to watch, that the always from both Pages also come or at least attractive are for both Pages. I have to the Example even even none Enquiry for legal Support, but the becomes rather like this, like you it also described have.
[8:54]As Addition taken along, OK, the legal Page is not whole blind, but the is already again meaningful, because, and the makes believe I already also one Point from with the Works councils and Employer counselling, that one legal at least Experience brings along, when not therein trained, studied and ready trained is. Then would be we already so a little with the Point, what the Special constitutes this field of work. I believe, he differentiates itself but proper from classic Conflicts in the Working life, where then Mediation requested is, when there two Colleagues or two Teams with each other in the Dispute are. But as soon as a Works Council with is added and so that also Works council members, gets the again one other Pitch and one other Complexity with.
[9:45]Before we us so to speak for the Main topic Conflicts in the Works council committee warm make, perhaps before like this, what makes for you the Special from on works councils, works councils, so that them one to observing Size in Conflicts are and also like you approach. Are Works councils there what Special features or simple Persons like other Roller carrier too?
[10:10]I have also about the Course the years always more Respect won before the Labour the Works councils. Because in the Foreground stands for me always still the Basic idea of the Works constitution law, that Works council work a Volunteering is. And we See Yes also in the society as a whole Context, like Important Honorary posts are. And in this respect is first there the Perception, the or the one makes it in the Rule additional to their normal Job and provides itself so to speak to the available.
[10:49]Additional Labour and additional Conflicts also on itself to take. The necessary me always still large Respect from, because I always again see, like diverse Tasks in the Works council activity come together and like with pleasure then also times Employer social Tasks, the Yes now not so the whole high Significance have,
[11:21]
Challenges of works council work
[11:17]on the Works councils outsourced become. And the make the then even times so with. Yes, there becomes the Pensioners' meeting authoritative through the Works councils designed. Or the Christmas lottery, the make the Works councils. Since stack itself then, I am times ins Office come, there could one hardly run, because itself the Winnings the Christmas mutes in the Office stack. And something like that find I simple incredible remarkable. And the makes also what with me. And in this respect is always the Readiness, there to watch, OK, first has itself the Human in favour to the Disposition placed. And the necessary me Respect. And then is the Human in one certain Constellation come, namely in in, mostly are them Yes not alone, so in a Works council committee and have itself there presumably also sometimes unexpected Perspectives, unexpected Requirements suspended. The can I also confirm, these Requirements.
[12:05]The social Function in the Structure the Enterprise becomes but strong also from Works council side executed and even even not from Employer side or not so strong. So Anniversaries, Birthdays exactly and also Christmas festivities so to speak really with the Ear on the Base or also even the Base embodying. You say, that them also additional Conflicts on itself take, so not only with the Colleagues, the then see, that the Works Council, the selected Works Council then even from the Workbench or from the Production deducted is and to the Works council work goes, but also Conflicts within the Committees. I find it always remarkable and my Background experience with Works councils are before all Things Industrial companies, where so Industrial worker itself in this Volunteering go have and there so to speak Co-determination revitalise. And the are mostly People, the so to speak times whole pictorial spoken not in the Sitting work learnt have, but really on the Machine standing or on the Box sitting and there one large Machine travelling, so really Craft still or with the hands what creating and then in a Committee come and one Labour make should, the mainly therein exists, with each other to talk, Ideas to roll, Figures to look at and on one Table to see.
[13:30]And then also something to write down or what to present, what them even not in their Education had. The find I to like before on most amazing, what the for the Individuals means, when he says, OK, I leave me set up. And mostly is it Yes like this, itself set up leave, because one in addition requested becomes, as that one itself says, I have there Desire in addition and otherwise nothing more to do.
[13:57]I think, the is really first these very foreign World, the one enters. So it goes much at Text capture, it goes much at Forming opinions, it goes much um, To speak, so first his Opinion also express to can, his Opinion then Hearing to procure in one Multi-person body, determine, that other perhaps other Opinion are, then to go further, Why are them other Opinion, what arranged them in addition, the is already really one Challenge.
[14:29]I have both with producing Trade as also with service providers most diverse Kind to do. And it is then also fascinating determine, that these Themes but itself always very resemble, independent from the concrete professional Background. So I have some in IT service providers made, the natural in turn one whole other professional Background have. But nevertheless, there is the Read and Communicate natural none Problem. But the Together, the in the Dialogue come, from the Dialogue out then also something to develop, is then also in turn one special Challenge. Yes, the find I one interesting Point. That's right, that there Opinion formation about Social contacts runs and not simple of all things become can. Then let us but the times view, which Conflicts in Committees and so that between the Committees typically arise or frequently to be found are. When I me introduce, that you frequently rather as Lawyer requested will from the Panel, then trades it itself probably in the Dimensions not so very at Conflicts between Committee members, the you then but…
[15:45]With the Processing other Order directions join in must, right? How experience you Conflicts in Committees? The first Impetus, someone as legal Counselling to be consulted, not the Conflict within of the works council. The is, think me, almost continuous like this. It gives Exceptional constellations, the then certain Phases in the Committee work concern, to the Example the Phase to New election one Board. Then can already times clear also the Please come to Schools. The make the Lawyers also a lot, Contents to schools, but also Processes to schools. Since can one natural also some accommodate, what to the Group formation and to the Assistance there contributes. But the normal First contact is from one certain Occasion published, the itself with one Conflict but mostly with the Employer side, says I now times in the Rough and Whole, with the topic. There is based and that one then from there coming the Topic on the Reason goes and in the Frame this Topic processing faster or slower, the lasts also different Time, states, that it in the Committee different Views in addition gives.
[17:10]Possibly but even not in addition to this Topic, but it is within this Board.
[17:16]Historic different Groups gives, certain Members with each other even not can, such Things. The scrolls itself then on. Then have you so to speak the Conflict situation before you.
[17:28]So like said, the could I me think, when you as Lawyer requested will, that you then first between the Lines, when you then recorded are, you notice, oh, the is now not only a Panel, but there are also different Opinions there, the more or less clear shown become. As Mediator will I more often already exactly from Committees in favour requested, because clear is and the so to speak aware also named and marked is, here can some not with each other. We must what make.
[17:59]Sometimes is it like this, that the Employer side said has, so there must her what make, we can at all not with you work. Then gives it there really one good Contact us to the Employer side,
[18:12]
Conflicts within the committees
[18:09]the said has, the must her not alone to deliver, there must her someone get. And frequently but also, that the Participants among each other say, so alone maul we us here and we come at all not ahead. We must the clarify and the are typically Camp conflicts also. Various Lines of conflict, old and new Works Council members, when the to one Choice stop itself so to speak to the Half topped up have. And it gives still more such Lines, but me comes still this Point, that I the Impression have, Conflicts become in the Works council committee rather bashfully named or also lived out. So when it itself not belongs, meets the so also on you to. The are although sometimes rough and everything, but actually is a strong Kit to say, we belong to together, we stand actually on the same Page and it falls Company speeches rather heavy, among each other Lines of conflict clear to mark.
[19:07]Can you so that what start? Yes, not whole, think me. So it comes whole also on the Degree of escalation to. So when I in high escalated Conflicts come, then have I frequently or is Part this Escalation also the Circumstance, that the Works Council itself not agree is and then different acts, natural also different noticeable for the Employer acts. But I believe, we may one Error not commit, by we the Works Council as one uniform Unit, as a homogeneous Structure realise. The is clear not the Case. The Works Council is extremely heterogeneous and likewise heterogeneous is be Construct behaviour. The means, the Question, knows one the prefer under the Carpet, as the so to speak to the Expression to bring, the can I not General with Yes answer. The experience I different. And I experience it even straight also like this, and the makes it natural then also especially heavy.
[20:14]That in which Kind from two Constellation also always then the one Works Council member one Familiar on Employer side what is stuck, what then perhaps in the Contradiction to the Overall attitude stands. And Employer make the but also whole with pleasure, that them then the Relationship of trust to one or other with pleasure utilise and then times enquire. The famous Cigarette break while Negotiations, where then said becomes, is the really serious, is the really Yours What do you want?
[20:47]And the is but whole fast like this, that there times a Word out, where I really now in the legal Consultancy, must I whole honest say, also sometimes Effort have, to say, so now stay we on one Strand. It gives one uniform Line, it gives one uniform Communication and none leaves here somehow what out. Yes, the find I interesting, that you in favour stand, then to say, now must we times here standardised lie. So the Committees, the I know, I believe already, the is a smaller Area. I believe, Works council committees are really very multi-layered and it makes one Difference, whether one to the Example, I says now times, in Inverted commas autonomous guided Works council committee before itself has or to the Example one, the unionised co-organised is, where there a high Degree of organisation itself also in the Committee shows. And with those I already the Impression have, that the a Value on itself is, to outside towards with one Voice to speak. And that the also the Conflict management or even also Avoidance in the Committee then Yes supported, to say, so here now, we want with one Voice to outside speak and then become Conflicts smooth ironed. But the can one Difference make. In the same way believe I also Staff councils, when one times still one other Professionalism with in addition takes, that the also again different with Lines of conflict within of the Committee avoid.
[22:09]Since missing it me outspoken on Experience, what Staff councils as far as and the Dynamics in this Committees. Since have I on one Page really Points of contact, the I now also for the mediative Context utilise could. Answers I natural already, but what the mediative Context concerning, must I me there hold back, because I really the Works council work know, the Yes also partly under different legal Occupancy. It gives Yes quite Differences between the Staff Council regulations and the Works council regulations. And in this respect is the rather, it is mine Home.
[22:44]I can but already also confirm, that each stronger the Trade union influence there is, each stronger is also one certain Kind from Guidance of the Board, the Certainly also in addition leads, that the Impression, the you describe, Namely, we are one and the stay we also promoted. The can I already confirm. Yes, so take we to the Example the Line from different Lists with the List election. The gives it much more often with Operated, where the Degree of organisation low is or where the Committee itself aware also from trade union Influence keeps away. Experience I the much more frequently, that there different Lists also are, as in Operated, the one strong Degree of organisation have and then also ultimately only one List, namely the Trade union list, also the Committee authoritative influenced. And there experience me, or I white not, whether the sociological whole load-bearing is, that many Lines of conflict already sorted out become. Then is a strong Share from Production people in the Committee and it missing completely the Administration as Workforce, what always to Conflicts lead would. Then is so to speak the Works Council as Committee occupied. Since are then even the People.
[24:08]Production representative inside. Or also Men and Women is a whole strong Part or Conflict line, the one draw could and frequently in Committees simple a Men's club realisation comes. Yes, I mine, the Works constitution law has Yes tried, to counteract this. It gives Yes actually really still one whole Series from Provisions, the with the Choice ensure should, that the Gender distribution
[24:33]
Gender distribution in the works council
[24:31]in the Works Council about the Workforce corresponds. Yes, but I know the quite in Production companies also, that the already in, like shall I say, a Endeavour is, in such Contexts Women in addition to motivate, itself