INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“

#206 GddZ

Learning and teaching organisational consulting.

Podcast feature #05

In conversation with Christian Rieckmann and Robert Kademann

Christian Rieckmann, independent organisational consultant based in Kassel. His main areas of expertise are management coaching, facilitation for the design of communication processes in groups, organisational analysis and organisational design, as well as process consulting support for companies during change processes. His core competence is characterised by a content-based approach using a methodology focused on strategy and teams. From 2014 to 2024, Christian Rieckmann was a lecturer in the MBA courses Multidimensional Organisational Consulting (MDO) and Coaching-Organisational Consulting-Superrevision (COS) at the University of Kassel with a focus on organisational consulting.

Robert KademannOrganisational consultant (M.A.), qualified teacher, specialising in educational management and organisational development, coach, supervisor and mediator.

Well through time.

The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.

Contents

Chapter

0:02 Welcome to the podcast

1:36 Understanding organisational consulting

4:54 Coaching or organisational consulting?

9:17 Differences in the client role

15:46 The change in the counselling relationship

22:15 The diversity of counselling approaches

30:48 Training in organisational consulting

40:34 Internal vs. external consultants

45:08 Conclusion and outlook

Summary

In this episode of „Gut durch die Zeit“, I sat down with my colleagues Robert Kademann and Christian Rieckmann, both experienced organisational consultants, to take an in-depth look at the topic of organisational consulting. We discussed what organisational consulting actually is, how to learn it and what challenges exist when teaching this discipline. We also took a look at the upcoming training in organisational consulting, which will be offered at INKOVEMA from June 2025.

We discussed the many aspects of organisational consulting, from the personal experiences of the consultants to the specific demands placed on them and the differences between coaching and organisational consulting. Christian and Robert bring different perspectives to the table: While Christian emphasises that the individual and their role in the organisation are at the centre of our considerations, Robert highlights the challenges of being a client. This conversation makes it clear that it is time to see organisations not just as mere structures, but as living systems in which human interactions and relationships are of fundamental importance.

A central topic of our conversation was the Ability to "read" organisations and to understand which factors can influence the success or failure of an organisation. I often notice that clients come in with personal concerns, but it's important to keep the organisation as a whole in mind. We also talked about how to adapt to different roles in the context of organisational consulting - be it as a consultant, facilitator or coach - and how these roles interact with each other.

Another point was the need for thorough preparation for the consultation, especially when it comes to familiarising oneself with the specific organisation and its challenges. We agree that a comprehensive analysis of the organisational structure, its processes and cultural elements is crucial for the successful outcome of a consultation.

In addition, we have the Aspects of teaching and learning in organisational consulting were discussed. Robert and Christian shared their thoughts on how qualified training should be organised and which elements are particularly important in this context. It became clear that the right skills, a clear structure and an exchange with other experts are fundamental to successfully mastering the challenges that arise in the counselling process.

This episode therefore not only offers an insight into the world of organisational consulting, but also valuable approaches and considerations for anyone who would like to further their education or change in this area.

 

Full transcript

[0:02]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:00]Since are we again with Learning to read organisations. What is the for a Symptom? Where comes the here? What have I for one Idea? Where can I again have a look? Where can I perhaps on the Search go, with Whom must I speak, at the Topic to address and to look, like we so that deal with? Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and Greetings you to one new Consequence. Today goes it at Organisational consulting. What is that? How learns one that? The is Yes already one special Question And today have I me two Colleagues invited, the exactly the do, the not only Organisational consulting learnt have, the the namely also make and also now here with INKOVEMA as soon as also teach. So can one the correctly say. Christian Rieckmann and Robert Kademann, two designated Experts. Hello her both. Yes, hello and Thank you for the Invitation, Sascha. Hello Sascha, Thank you for the Invitation. Today shall it at these two Aspects go.
[1:00]Organisational consulting, that one somehow learn must and also the Gauges, because the also natural one The challenge is, this Field of activity other Willing near to bring. And the has natural also the Occasion, because her the here do become now, then from 2025 in the June becomes one Organisational consulting training take place, but the shall here now today already again a in terms of content Podcast and not only a Advertising podcast become, but a in terms of content Podcast, itself a clear Picture thereof to make,
[1:36]
Understanding organisational consulting
[1:33]what is the so Organisational consulting? The have we on the Place here already the one or other Paint discussed and Christian.
[1:41]You have in addition also one Podcast in addition started, where you with Colleagues really profound also the Topic pick up and edit, as also, I would with pleasure also with you with pleasure about it speak, what it means, this Order area Organisational consulting to teach, so other Topics. One Idea thereof to mediate, that them the itself then also can and on it to prepare. And me seems, and the was the Reason for the Podcast, that the already one Difference makes, whether I one Education teaching like Mediation or Coaching or Therapy, where we concrete People as Client have. And with Organisational consulting is stop naturally the Organisation the Client, the one not so right finds, the although one Address has, but whole many different Additions and like the Colleague from us, Rolf Balling, always says, the one but not kiss can. And the seems me a whole more striking Difference to be. Yes. Jan, say times, like is the with you with Organisational consulting?
[2:41]So I would like you on the one hand agree, on on the other hand you also contradict, because of course... Catch we the second to. Yes, good. So the is natural like this, the is always the Question, where is the Contact? So where kick you in Contact? And the is natural the Human. So one could think, where is there the Difference to the Example to the Coaching, because Organisational consulting often begins and also takes place in this typical Coaching setting. With Setting mine me, you are in the Slide, face-to-face is opposite, no matter whether now analogue or digital and you speak with one People. What there already one Difference makes, is.
[3:19]Although me, there come we Yes later still on it, in the Moment me also parallel from mine Claim through this Setting in one Coaching role perceive, so the Profession also need, is but this Human for me a Protagonist and provides so that one Contact surface, someone, the the Organisation me opposite in the Moment to the Expression brings, represent. And I think from Beginning on always with, what is the for one Organisation, what for one Role has this Human in the Organisation. And the runs as Parallel process, although I perhaps in the Conducting dialogue straight about mine Question technique or what it also straight is, very personally on this People to enter, first times whole with him am. And the is now, the is actually beautiful, the is like one Paradox. You could then say, all the more more I individual on this People enter and him also pick up, the Trust have, understand, all the more more am I straight thereby the Organisation closer, although I me Yes due to mine Intervention perhaps straight even not at the Organisation take care of. And in the Just a moment, where I then about the Organisation think about it, that, what I straight experience, as Expression this Systems perceive.
[4:38]All the more more can I then, although I Yes then on the other Page am, more for this People do and more Understanding for him have. The is the Field of tension, in the I me always move, independent of which,
[4:54]
Coaching or organisational consulting?
[4:50]that it then later natural also other Formats the Communication gives. I have there still not so a clear Picture, but you say Yes from the Field of tension. Robert, like is the with you? How speak you with organisations? I find very, very exciting, that the Christian straight about the Coaching in the Organisational consulting came. My Picture is actually the Question the Contracting authority. So who is actually the Client, the straight before me sits in the senses? Who is the counsellor, not Subject element? I believe, about it come I inside. And then applies it to one good Timing also to say, I believe, we are here even not more in the Coaching on the road, but it has itself the Format changed. And about the Person in the Organisation to have an impact, the is then the Idea behind it. And there is good to watch, who sits before me, with Whom speak I about the Organisation and is the the right Person, about the Themes to speak, about the we there even speak. What becomes a Audience, when one so to speak to be added would as silent Little mouse and one sees you both with one Person talk, what could one recognise, ah, the is now a Coaching and.
[5:56]On the other hand, ah, the is now Organisational consulting. Would one the lead can? So I mine yes, the Question, the I then scribe or perhaps already the Concerns with the Moment and when I says Coachee, would I this Term reluctantly utilise. I realise me not as Coach. I have only straight said, that I from the Profession one Coaches Intervention set can in mine Conversation management, in this Setting, that I the perceive. But when someone to me comes, explicit my Coaching to perceive, so also in the Coaching reflect you Yes the Organisational role always with, it is even not Supervision and already even not Therapy. But when someone to me comes with one Claim about his Role, about his Organisation, especially when he one shaping Role there has to speak.
[6:48]Then can be, that I whole fast, not only can be, in the Rule is it also like this, with him or her about the Organisation talk. So almost fachsimple Demand visualise and this Human, the me opposite sits, as such in his Personality at all none Topic is, where I also not check. Only, the said I straight with from the Profession of the Coachings then also sometimes coming, that I the Sensitivity have, this People so to perceive, that I not unreflected in one Kind from Specialist counselling dump, where I perhaps straight simple something about the Organisation explain, what By the way also a Part the Organisational consulting is. But always parallel in the Reflection is that, what I straight do, that, what straight my Opposite straight for itself, for be Concerns needs. But I take the Announcement, that it itself at a Concerns goes, like I to the Example one Organisation change can, already so serious, that I not start.
[7:55]I name it times like this, to psychologise, because I me there feel good, but natural also whole clear then with Structures, Processes or what also always remains, what then straight Topic is. We have Yes now only one whole explicit Situation singled out, so one Two-person conversation situation as Inverted commas Coaching situation or Organisational consulting. We come then later in addition, that it Certainly also whole other Settings gives, the it in the Coaching not gives, but the typically Organisational consulting then make up. Me went it therefore, for this Just a moment, I talk with other Persons and can I listen as Expert, Third, the is now Organisational consulting or the is Coaching. You said yes, Christian, straight the Concerns the Person. And there would have I now suspected to say, well, at the Coaching have I a Concerns the Person and with the Organisational consulting is the Concerns the Organisation, the me with pleasure through one Person natural mediates becomes, a Difference. But would I the listen, Robert, like would it the with you be, when you…
[8:57]You work in both Settings also. You are also Coach. Absolutely, exactly. And the perhaps also in the Difference, what with me often happens, is even from the one, from the personal Setting, the Coaching for my sake, in the Organisational consulting to get in, by we simple remember, the Object changed itself.
[9:17]
Differences in the client role
[9:16]I find the Question very, very interesting. I believe, when one as quieter Listener and Expert listens.
[9:23]Then would one it on it remember, that itself the Object even changed. Even not the Individual from the professional Role out, the reflexive Counselling format in Claim takes, but a likewise Expert from the Role out, the itself with as Technical expert for Organisations with me in one Counselling setting is located, in the even the Organisation Subject of consultation is. And there all possible Themes even discussed become, the for, I say times, the Client organisations helpful, necessary, purposeful, like also always are. I think, the is the Difference, the one actually listen would. So I have so the Presentation so to speak, that when I one Hierarchy take and I come always in the more responsible Functional castors one Organisation, that then also always stronger the organisational Element anyway from the Person out speaks, because them even for the Organisation Responsibility carries, while so to speak in the Hierarchy more below the Employees stronger their personal Role in the View have, not so very the Line or Management functions and there then also much less the Topic truncated becomes, the the entire or one Part the Organisation concerns. Lets itself the so simple say or would her today say, we demand in Organisations from all always this Overview perspective for the entire Organisation?
[10:48]I would with pleasure in Share contradict and agree. So agree can I in the Point, that... To the second Paint today. Perhaps draws itself the through, we become it see.
[10:56]Agree can I in the Point, that those Persons, the in the Hierarchy one Manager, so seen higher Leadership role take over, with pleasure in the Themes with the Organisation are. Since see I as Coach from the Role out but often also times one Horse's foot, because often goes it at very personal Topics. So the is then also the Contradiction inside. So sometimes is it also one beautiful Seduction, on the Organisation to look, although actually the Person in the Centre belongs. Quite is it but like this, that it but Role differences gives, like often the Themes then Object the Counselling are. And there have I but rather the Realisation won, that those, the higher in the Hierarchy are, already very exactly differentiate can between I am here in one Coaching setting and I need a Coaching for me as Person in mine Leadership role and I need Counselling to the Organisation. Rather from this People will I then also as Organisational consultant addressed. Mr Kardemann, You as, please.
[11:51]Against this notice I so in middle Positions, that the fluctuates. I search someone, the me supported, the me accompanied and so continue. Then will I often as Coach addressed and land in the Organisational consulting. So place I the rather fixed. The find I one good Point. But Christian, you want what say. Yes, so what you now Yes already through yours Question predestined have, Sascha, and I have the Yes also itself with introduced, the Topic this Deade. And the is Yes already very different. So it is Yes not like this, I catch with the Coaching on and then becomes it Organisational consulting vice versa, But it gives, and the is that, what I so exciting find in the Organisational consulting, what me also challenged and what I very with pleasure make and what I about the years also have learn must, what it but also not simple makes. Because it gives Yes not only the Decision, is the now a more person-centred Coaching? Is it perhaps more a even specialised Reflect one Organisation? I name the now simple times Consultancy.
[12:53]Or is it a Access, where one says, in the Senses one craftsman, we want times one Workshop make. Man prepares one Workshop before and he is in this explicit Role, I name the then Facilitation, someone, the one Workshop prepared. And then but in this Preparation phase, when one perhaps one Representative of the Systems has, with the one the then prepared, already Coaching competences needs, at not on any Wooden paths to come. Then but this Workshop makes, the one really, and the would I not as Organisational consulting designate.
[13:33]Although the Helpful is, when I the from the Background think along, but it is then one good Workshop to make and about the Contextualisation of the Workshops, especially when it a Process becomes, about several, come I then on Questions over, the then to the Example means, to what extent has that, what we here do.
[13:51]One Influence on the Organisation? But then notice you already, once as Facilitator, once as Coach come I pure and maybe, and the have I also in the last years increasingly experienced, that the People really with me simple times, so straight when you like this, the, where itself Organisations are located, the have perhaps their first ten years behind itself and now are them with 150 Female employees arrived, And then come them really, yes, we have there somehow, we work Yes whole good, but can you us not more tell, we have here so one Kind Organisation chart, peep but times on it, like sees because the out? And then are you really with those on Discuss, what it for, I say times also business management, you say now almost, the is not trivial, but so very classic Moulds would exist, like one a Organisation chart paint can and like one one Matrix look leave could and whether the fits or whether the one Project organisation is. You could the also again Coaching name, so a technical Coaching, but you are very, very wide away from the Person and any Drivers and what it otherwise everything very beautiful is, then in the Coaching even gives. I would have still one Constellation so to speak, at the Difference again clear make in this small Area. And then come we to the Points, the Organisational consulting as Work setting anyway still bring along and where then not more the Idea get along could. The is now Coaching.
[15:15]Constellation so to speak, it comes Person X and says, I have there a Concerns, I will one Management function take over in one Company, in the I already longer am, now come I in the Management function and I must there a little what saddle up and what the for me means and like I there mine Role fill in wants. Coaching. Professional Counselling setting, Coaching. It goes at Leadership, it goes at Role clarification, it goes at the own Positioning there. What makes the with me as Human and where lies there mine Professionalism in the
[15:46]
The change in the counselling relationship
[15:44]Perception this Role in this Organisation? I would the Coaching name. And the other Constellation is, it could with pleasure the Person be, but we leave times one Personnel department speak, says here, we have there one Person, the takes over now Management function, is already longer with us. We have there a Programme. Everyone, the in the Management position wants, must then a Coaching run through. The is not so to speak decisive, that he the Role gets, but when he them then inside has, must he the carry out and the would we with pleasure, that You the make. Is the now so to speak, because the Concerns from the Organisation written down in one Programme with Claims, Expectations for you then happens?
[16:25]Stronger stained from Organisational consulting or says her the same Work, as when the Person itself is coming? So for me is the The challenge in this Scenario, what you straight represented have, that I with this Triangulation professional deal with. Per se has the natural nothing automatically with Organisational consulting to do, but it is one other constellation, as when a Human as Private person to me comes, I would have with pleasure a Coaching, as also I have the also straight, you will requested, whether you in the Coaching pool Go would, then speak I the Personnel development with you and then have you the Reputation, and then send you the People, where you then check, come the voluntary, come the not voluntary, what is behind it, what means that, what for the Interest in has the Organisation, but the is Coaching. Okay, nice and fun. Robert, like is it with you? I have the Feeling, that it then to the Organisational consulting becomes, when I notice, so I am first very grateful, that we from the Conversation level of the Counselling settings come out. When I even notice, that not more the Question to the Counselling setting in the Room stands. So we need now times Coaching for this, we need now times Training in favour, but that we with one Objective on the road are, the Organisation shall or on End of the Paths would have we with pleasure. Or the and the are straight the Topics, the us on the Foot press. And I requested will, Human Mr Gardemann.
[17:44]What can we because do or following Path have we, where could them us support? And then have I the Feeling, now come we in the Level from Organisational consulting, in the it therefore goes, I says times most diverse Counselling formats targeted.
[17:58]Strategic also for the Organisation to orchestrate and to superior, where exactly is what helpful? When must which Level, with how, who, to which Goal in Contact us come and in which Format can the take place, who can the do? And then are we, believe me, on this Level the Organisational consulting on the road. Alone, that the Organisation inquires and says, we would have with pleasure, we would need, is for me often also simple times one whole helpful, professional necessary Triangulation from orders. The Difference is then, when the Format not more in the Field of vision is. I can the only agree, Sascha. Since bring I the Term Expectation management pure. So the to perceive and to look, what is it now and the is interesting, the has then so one Dual role. So anyway only the Doll in the Doll gives Yes this Picture. Since will I Yes again on one other Level Consultant, so I am Yes again Consultant that I to the Example one Reflection to this Differentiation first make it possible, what you straight said have and that I about it like from one Meta level in one, Role clarification, in what is the for a Process, what is it, what fits for Settings in addition and then am I whole strong in this Expertise the apart to hold and am could one now again say, in one Coach function for mine.
[19:13]Client system in the Moment to learn, what need we at all. And the can I but as Organisational consultant, because I not focussed am on mine Expertise, so very the also Psychological well-founded is, what I for Important consider. But I am not reduced and the is really now none Devaluation. I am there not the Thick board drill or limited, the is a beautiful Word, limited, but I can then in one other Profession jump and these Profession is then on once, like I already straight said, Facilitator or Overall process architecture or in one technical counselling Role And I can quasi oscillate in this various Roles, not everywhere in the same Professional depth, the is Yes clear, otherwise can you Yes everything, but you have the Definition competence and the Expectation management competence, these Differentiation introduce, at you then to decide, to what extent you in which Part straight go along or what you believe, where now the Organisations continue would. And the can so wide go, the name I then Process intensity, that so someone Third parties gets. Recommended, where says, the should there now times continue.
[20:28]I can not a Example in addition with in the Room feel. So it can Yes quite be, that one with one Consultant colleagues, one Consultant colleague co-operates in even one so triangulated Order clarification with one Team, the for Organisations responsible is. And then is one the both Colleagues even in moderating Role and tried, this Team meeting good to moderate, the Things to be noted.
[20:47]Simple one red Thread through the Meeting time to hold. And the, the other, is even Technical expert for Organisations in the Senses from, which