INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#196 – Are mediators allowed to take a stand and position themselves in social and international conflicts?
Iin conversation with Christian Bähner and Elke Schwertfeger
Elke Schwertfeger – graduate psychologist, business mediator BM and trainer BMWA and BM; managing partner of Two view in Freiburg.
Christian Bähner – qualified educationalist, business mediator BMWA and BM, organisational consultant and trainer BMWA and BM; managing partner of Zweisicht.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Contents
In this episode of the „Gut durch die Zeit“ podcast, we look at a particularly sensitive topic: the role of mediators in the face of political disagreements and social conflicts. Together with experienced mediation colleagues Elke Schwertfeger and Christian Bähner from Zweisicht, I shed light on the challenges facing mediators in an increasingly polarised political climate.
We discuss how political posturing and political disputes can enter into mediation practice and what demands this places on the neutrality and attitude of mediators. Elke and Christian, who both look back on over two decades of experience in mediation training, will contribute valuable insights into the balancing act between personal conviction and professional neutrality to the discussion.
A central point of our conversation centres around the question of whether mediators should be fundamentally politically neutral or whether it is necessary to take a clear stance. We explore how current social developments, particularly in the wake of recent political trends in Germany, can create a paradigm shift for mediators. We find that many mediators also have personal and emotional reactions to social events that were not addressed in their training.
We also address the psychological aspects of conflicts in the world of work and in society. Christian and Elke explain how important it is to maintain a people-centred attitude while respecting one's own professional mandate. They also discuss the responsibility that mediators bear within conflicts and the need to actively recognise that not every conflict can be mediated if there are significant power imbalances.
In the rest of the episode, we reflect on the uncertainties and challenges in today's VUCA world (volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity), which encourage mediators to constantly scrutinise their own positioning. We will analyse what place mediation can take in our current social reality and discuss the question of whether we perhaps only really recognise the value of mediation and dialogue in turbulent times.
After an in-depth and insightful discussion, we finally come to the conclusion that the challenges facing mediators do not allow for simple answers. Nevertheless, the conviction remains that, especially in difficult times, the need for dialogue and mediation can be strengthened in order to find ways to resolve conflicts.
Transcription of the entire conversation
[0:00]Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time, the Podcast round at Mediation,
[0:08]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:04]Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting, a Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence. And the today Consequence has a special Topic. Today goes it at Politics, political Localisation, political Dispute, social Conflicts and which Role there Mediators play, play can, play should, play may and what the Whole with the Requirements on Mediators to do has. And at itself here in the Podcast this but sometimes possibly delicate Topic to approach, have I me two whole competent Mediation colleagues invited, the already long Mediators train. In a way Mediators the first Hour probably almost are and therefore none blank Leaf. And nevertheless wants I Elke Sword sweep and Christian Bähner itself also short introduce leave. Cordially welcome first here in the Podcast, her both. Hello.
[1:15]Hello, many Thanks to for the Invitation. We look forward to us very and are tense to this Topic with you in the Exchange to come. Us drives the the last two years whole especially acute um. And we have us many Thoughts internal made, like we so that Bypass and are tense, sometimes also astonished, about the Exchange also with Colleagues and Colleagues, like different also this Topic seen and rated becomes.
[1:45]Yes, Elke, there Go we almost centre pure, but we give Christian still short the Opportunity, at least Hello to say and then… To watch.
[1:54]Yes, hello Sascha, Thank you for the Invitation. I happy me also. Many Greetings from Fribourg to Leipzig and yes, beautiful, that we today the Opportunity have, about the important Topic to speak. We are Yes already always again in addition in the past months in the Exchange been and today See we us here in the Box.
[2:13]Exactly, the Topic has itself also with us so a little accumulated. I have you Yes so to speak there addressed, even not times, because her also Mediators trains and therefore one whole good Overview and Insight in the Scene have and also about the Development, because her it already since years, almost Decades already, or ne, her makes already since decades, I believe her have now 20-year anniversary or 25th anniversary. Exactly.
[2:39]So Two-view gives it since 2003. We itself are already a pair years longer as Creatures active. And from therefore, we form now already since 21 years Colleagues and Colleagues from.
[2:51]Yes, and therefore is it from the Wait here already times a good Point been, but it was also whole concrete one Explanation, one Declaration, a Post, the but more detailed was, where her the Topic truncated have, confronting also named have and said have, in favour stand we and there come we then also equal on it to speak, because the has me moved then to say, the are now exactly the Correct, the I in favour address, at the in the Podcast here a little to deepen. But first perhaps again so in, two Words to yourselves. Many Mediators become you know, but perhaps gives it also the one or other Consultant now so on Audience, the now not so in the Mediator scene itself knows his way around. Who are you? What makes you? Yours are in Fribourg on each Case, the have her already said. And Two view united you as Training institute. perhaps Elke short to you what makes you from like are you to the Mediation come and have it there so long endured.
[3:56]In fact have Christian and I already since Start from Two-view, so about 20 years, one common Path and have us about the Mediation training got to know. And then in the work context, we were both with Management consultancies determined, Conflicts need one other Shape the Editing, like we it got to know have. And so came ours Passion to the Mediation. And it was quite fast clear, that we there our own Thing from make and so have we 20 founded.
[4:27]From the Training group so to speak.
[4:30]Exactly, we were a Intervision team.
[4:34]With Whom was the back then?
[4:36]With one Primary rock the Mediators, the Christopher Besemer, have we ours Education made. So to speak from the Basics on the notice and then later also co-developed. And we have us Yes from the Themes specialised, but not from the Industry. And the is to like before one large Joy, in most different Working environments with always again resembling People in the Themes on the road be to may.
[5:06]Yes, Thank you. Elke, Christian.
[5:10]And I supplement times, the Christopher Besemer, the comes Yes from the Peace movement and there was Yes so one whole important Root then also
[5:18]For the Mediation.
[5:19]From the then also the Federal Association Mediation then originated is. And we have then rather on this Level from Society and Neighbourhood and Community Mediation learnt and viewed and have then but due to our Fields of work noted, there fits not everything and there gives it Questions, the Important are and with those we us deal with must. And so came then also the Impulse to say, we develop the now for us more in Direction Organisational and Business mediation. Back then gave it none, hardly one Provider. We were none known at least and are with many other Colleagues, Colleagues in the Federal Association then on the Path gone and have said, Human, what needs it now, that the also in the Field the Labour and Business mediation transferable is. And have us then with Hierarchy, with Power and similar Aspects analysed and had then also the Happiness the early Hour, that we from Beginning on Clientele from Middle class and larger The company had.
[6:27]Since then also Mediators train and accompany were able to, until towards to conflict management systems, the we then co-initiated and partly also with introduced have and had from therefore also always the Insight, as external Mediators Mediation in The company to offer, but also, like runs it in-house and like utilise the larger Company, the itself there Own start-up centres and Mediator pools set up.
[6:55]Yes, the find I Yes one interesting Development. 2001, 2002, the was Yes also the Time, as Jörg Cracks be first Business Mediation Book in first edition brought out, but even from one whole other Direction coming.
[7:09]Correct.
[7:10]The was probably not in the Training group from Christopher Besemer to find.
[7:15]Was he not.
[7:15]That there exactly two completely various Directions there itself developed have. Exactly.
[7:20]And the Most Impulses came Yes then still like this, mine I me to remember, then B2B conflicts and strong Harvard Treatment-orientated to work. And we have then but already whole early also in us counselling Activities and in the Trainings, the we then also already offered have, determined, the Most Conflicts in The company gives it within the company. And the has very much with humanising Themes and Questions to do. And there needs it rather so these relationship clarifying Mediation approaches. Since have we us then specialised and ours Education also on it constructed.
[8:02]Many things was Yes also very strong then still from the legal Corner characterised. And we come even both rather about the psychological Corner. And therefore were the humanising Themes for us the Topics, the we especially focussed have and the also in ours conflicts, the we processed have, in the Foreground stood and even not so very Negotiation topics or legal Topics.
[8:25]Yes, and this Point with Christopher Besemer and the strong so to speak Strand, the to the BM led, from the Peace movement out or from the peace mediation Labour out, also Tilman Butcher, the find I on mine interesting Point now also for the today Topic, because the natural also in Speech stands simple and, Yes, what the Development so to speak with the russian Full attack 22 then also this Idea adds, the is still open, but belongs to with discussed. Probably is it today a Part of which. We have then probably several Entry levels. Vani, perhaps can her still in, two Things from the Time say, what so peace mediation then so the Atmosphere was, like one Mediation then in Commercial enterprise brought has, when one from so one rather social Viewing direction to the Conflict management comes.
[9:31]I believe, where the Proximity always was and the Connectedness, is actually in the Question the Attitude. People to like, one constructive Path to go, the was always ours Conviction, human also to act, also in conflicts, is also in hard Commercial enterprises possible. And the was, as we started have, almost like a Paradigm shift. Whole many were the Conviction, one must itself either professional, speak also a Piece cold, profit orientated behaviour or human. And then was the rather so the Social track and the Peace movement. And we were always thereof convinced, the goes together. When we human Appreciative fair act, are we economic more profitable. And the was always our Ambition, the also in the The company to transport. And from therefore have we, believe me, so the Roots not leave and at the same time very pragmatic on it looked, like create we that, these Themes also in Commercial enterprise to transport. And the not as Contradiction to realise, but the with to integrate and together.
[10:43]Yes.
[10:45]So a peaceful, one can say also a friendly or fair Together, the was Yes also always one Idea for the world of work. The was a Link, the for us good Fitted has. And when I me so remember back, in Job adverts stood actually already always inside, Strong in communication and capable of conflict and similar. It should each and each be. Whole honest, the Most knew even not so very before 20, 25 years, like the at all goes and like one the make can. And me went the at least also like this, that I the to Home even not learnt have and that I there even none Role model, none Model had. And then, the was so mine Motivation then also, me on the Path to make and me with the Themes so intensive to employ. And then natural exciting determine, in The company gives it also none Idea, like the better run can. And it gives rather so one Cemetery. Man is quiet and holds the Feet still and one speaks not above. Cold Conflicts, until it at some point to the large Scandal with one large destroying Effect comes. And then is it in the Principle often also already to late been. And there so these Idea bring in, the goes also different and there can we earlier above speak and Find also Paths through this Conflict through,
[12:09]So that in the best Case the Relationship after still stronger is or again trusting becomes. The was attractive. And beautiful is Yes also, that we nowadays experience, that Mediation in the The company arrived is. May Certainly still much better known become, but then knew nobody, what is Mediation. The was as Term still even not defined and introduced. And today can one at least say, in the Most Company, the have already times thereof belongs to and also already times tried out.
[12:44]Yes, the Conflicts may now already also direct named and approached become. And me seems also, that it good connectable was, because the Idea so to speak the Improving communication and of the self-growth, the was Yes already longer also in the Range from Group dynamics, Organisational development, Coaching, what everything already good also in The company whirled up was, But when also still not so in the Senses from we may Conflicts also direct name and approach, there has Certainly Mediation one real Added value brought, also there now not still a second I-message communication training to set up or even but times somehow Team development to make, where it simple really at Clarification work goes.
[13:32]
Political neutrality of the mediators
[13:32]Okay, the is like this, can I the whole good categorise again, so yours Beginnings there and even also with this, I says times, peace activists Roots also now this Post on LinkedIn 2024 in the february again one longer Bridge beat or also one wider, where her asked have, are we as Mediators to political Neutrality obliged? Because stop the Neutrality the Base position is in the Conflict mediation. What was because for you the Occasion to say, the must we thematise? What has itself there for you Changed or what have her observed, that the necessary was? And then come I also with pleasure again with the occasions, the from me from to the Topic lead.
[14:26]I white even not, Sascha, whether itself there really what changed has, because I would already always say, that we one people-orientated Posture had, the itself also in the social or political Discourse pronounced has and the we there in the Frame also represent have. From therefore, probably has itself internal even not so much changed, but in the Autumn 23 gave it then again with us internal so one intensive Discussion, the actually rather so in these Direction comes, must we clearer become, must we louder be, must we us there also more engage and there was the Trigger once so this View.
[15:11]And we means Mediators? We means Mediators now?
[15:16]We Mediators from Two-view. We have the in our Two-view community from Fixed and Free Mediators with each other discussed with this Idea, Human, like goes it you because straight with the Shift to the right in Germany? How goes it you with this Outlook on the State elections 2024 in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Brandenburg? How goes it you then, as then these Remigration event in Potsdam was? And what means it for us and must we there not us also clearer position? And the was so the Point, where we then said have, yes, we are there personally affected of which. The solves in us one whole large Care and Pain from. And so the Question from, I would like in addition mine Voice raise and the hinders me not on it, at the same time Mediator to be. and this Discuss. We have it in the
[16:17]Post Yes as Edge show also labelled. So clearer become, was not so the Idea.
[16:25]Yes, I can me the respectively also, And what I so to speak experienced have and such Questions me also provided, categorise, I am political disputable, I make the also on LinkedIn clearly, take to political Themes Position. And it is not rare, that me the Argument beats against us, what are because you for a Mediator? You are Yes even not neutral. And Why beat you you here on one Page? So whether you now the really warlike Debate take at the russian War of aggression on the Ukraine and there the Themes Arms delivery etc. And the has me fast surprised. So I can there political good above discuss and I likes also Discussion. But alone, that I discuss and Counterarguments find and not now only one Dialogue and School district build up wants in LinkedIn to the Topic, becomes frequently marked. And not only from political Discussants, but also from mediatorial Colleagues, that the not mediative is and that the but somehow then none, so what are because you for one, is so one Connotation there. Since have I noted, the must clarified be and the must also, believe me, one Discussion under Mediators be.
[17:54]So for us was always whole important, that we from ours Trainees expect, that them in one certain Posture grow into it. The is a Claim in the Education and the makes already clearly, for us is Mediation not a Method kit, but actually one Posture question. And therefore was us it also important, that we authentic, personally to Things on Position refer. Our Posture becomes about it visible. And there would like I not Neutral be and understand I also the Order as Mediator not like this. And this Being authentic, Posture show, becomes from our Experience rather honoured. So we listen very frequently, we can you good estimate, we know, with Whom we it to do have. And the is a more genuine Contact. And therefore is for us these Neutrality often rather what Attached, what Façade, where someone not in Contact us goes.
[18:57]Yes, also retreating, exactly. Who really one from the Contact us goes, Why also always, but I find nevertheless so to speak interesting, because we on one certain Level Unity, believe me, have and we the Conceptual completely different categorise.
[19:20]I hats me before this husbandry concept, that so to speak Mediators in the Education in one Posture grow into it. The would I like this, believe me, not declare. I white now not, whether mine Training candidates say would, the feels itself but so on and the make we also and there need you the also not so name. The believe I not. Posture show, find me, in turn is rather a political Topic, where I also say, yes, there applies it really also Behaviour then also on Day to lay. But Conceptual go I rather so to speak thereof from to say, Neutrality is one professional Service, the I in one Mediator contract ready am to give. The check I before, whether the in the Case fits, whether I the perform can and like this, whether the Consideration right. And then is Neutrality for me one contractual agreed Performance. The make I professional. And when I then ready am with the Order, then is it also again good. I have not so to speak the conceptual Idea, that I something from me out in the Mediation bring, what I in the Education so to speak in me to the Grow brought have. So when one so with inner Posture now as Concept approach. And the find I one interesting Point, because we, believe me, to the same Goal control, but one different Concept thereby have. And believe me, it has already also still Differences. Christian, I believe, you have.
[20:49]Perhaps is Yes also the Word Posture different occupied on the Position. I would now the Neutrality on the Place also rather as Principle the Mediation See and less as the Attitude, but the Posture or perhaps other Wording. The Values, the we mediate, is, like Go we with People around? So this co-operative Thinking, these Orientation on Feelings and a Interest in on the Emotionality, the State of mind of the Other and also of the self-expression. How goes it me so on this accepting, benevolent, caring Image of man, would I now times say, the we then also in Values express. The is us a Concerns, that the even not only one Method is, where I now so to speak times click on and say, now am I Mediator and now interest I me for you and otherwise are me People total no matter and I behaviour me like the Axe in the Forest. Yes, the is
[21:44]Yes one wide Span from are me no matter and I behaviour me like the Axle in the Forest.
[21:50]Yes, yes, clear. So I make it times extra now a little black and white, at to show, what I so that mine. And perhaps goes it on one very early Experience also back, where we times experienced have, that we one Conflict with one other Mediator had, the then with this Wish, the itself then not co-operative or not dialogical behaviour has and then also the Wish to one Mediation said has, I have none Trestle on Mediation.
[22:20]Hey, you, I would me look forward to, when you now yours Smartphone in the Hand take and one Star rating on yours Podcast catcher leaves behind, like you this Podcast pleases. Because the Helps us here as Podcast maker, that this Podcast also found becomes from Colleagues and other Podcast listeners, the the Podcast still not know. So, and now goes it more with the Podcast.
[22:48]And the is for me or for us so one values Question, like Go we because ultimately with the Instruments, the we itself mediate, at and is the now only a Method box, where I each Paint search, what fits and whereupon have I in principle Fancy it? The make we under other natural nevertheless also, but I would now to the Example not per se always pick out, would like I favourably, friendly, fair in Conflicts me behaviour, but the is for me a Value, or we say now, have now even Posture in addition said, like as Image of man or as more fundamental Value even ours In my opinion also from inside out lived become wants.
[23:34]Yes, and I would it also even not so whole Large moral grasp want, but actually rather like this, when I me the Mediation commit, then commit I me in one constructive Path. Yes, so the is for me rather very coarse. And this constructive Behaviour or the Posture behind it, the is for me actually the Prerequisite. Then gives it whole many individual Gradations, individual Values. But that I me one constructive Value commit, the is actually for me so the Basis. And also the is even not naturally, when someone in one Mediation training comes. We know whole often still this, then behaviour I me in the Private so and in the professional Context am I then Mediator. The has for us even not together.
[24:24]Ah yes, OK. Since differentiate we us also. I would also in mine Conflicts me reserved, is the now smart, here one Mediation to carry out? Is the Moment of surprise, the I now perhaps as blind Stain have, reachable? Is it for me also worthwhile? Without natural exactly to know, what is the in the Blind spot, otherwise would be he Yes not blind, but worthwhile itself the Expenditure in favour or is the now here one other Kind from Conflict management necessary, where I it delegate or so or where I it also simple be leave, where I simple say, I have now simple none Time in favour.
[25:01]The can also constructive be.
[25:03]Exactly, but the Examination would I me so say before. And I notice, when I on the political Topic go, I have already the Impression, that we, whether we it sometimes want or also not so seen become or us on it also argumentative then nail down leave must. Yours should but for Mediation be. Yours should but now for Mediation be. And that the also a political, is also one political Weapon. So I have the whole in the Discussion at the russian War of aggression clear experienced, where I say, it is more complete Rubbish, there Mediation carry out or also only in favour to be, in the Moment X and Y. The can itself perhaps in the month two and three then again change, but at the moment is it, not with mine Values to represented, for Mediation to advertise and so that the Parties to the conflict also a Piece wide levelling on one Equivalence. Since sit namely then Party to the conflict 1 and Party to the conflict 2 and not more Attacker and Attacked. The find I one difficult Discussion, a difficult Topic.
[26:08]
The challenges of mediation in conflict
[26:09]The See we also like this. So we would also in such Contexts never expect, that Victim voluntary on Eye level in constructive Procedure go.
[26:22]Bullying, with us in our Field of work.
[26:24]Bullying is so a Topic. Exactly, the would be for us also not mediable. Since gives it clear Offences and the need also Consequences. So the Share we. Since are we unconnected also not, that we always constructive Procedure like Mediation Select must. What we in principle already say, and the is Yes then rather Harvard, the Thought from the Harvard concept is then Tit-Fort-Head. So when it a Rethinking would exist and a Offer, the fair on Eye level take place can, then are we natural in favour, these Things to utilise. So none Thoughts of revenge then to lay, but then one Path to search.
[27:06]But not.
[27:07]With this Idea give way
[27:10]And all-round Consequences live. Christian, like go you in the Discussion or which Discussion have you in addition experienced? I can me already also introduce, that many… Sich then wonder become, that then so a Mediator says, nope, none Mediation.
[27:27]So I wanted straight still a Thought to the Before that supplement. So I find it already Important to check, whether the Prerequisites for one Mediation given are. The see I now in the from you addressed War, War of aggression from Russia against the Ukraine also not. So the Negotiation would now Yes one Condition have, that the Ukraine itself submits and then could one about Peace negotiate. And the is on one not acceptable Condition knotted and the would be therefore also none Mediation or diplomatic Solution in the actual senses. From therefore would I there also say, comes Mediation not in Consideration.
[28:08]But shares her the Observation or had her also such Discussions, that the like faded out was, so one Prerequisite test? And that simple many said, also Colleagues said, so the should negotiate.
[28:23]Yes, know you, Sascha, I believe, there becomes a Reverse conclusion made, the so natural not right. So so to the Motto, when you not for Peace and for Negotiation are, then are you automatically for War.
[28:37]Yes, exactly. And the is a Conversely, the true natural so not.
[28:42]So I find it terrible, what there happens and I find it terrible, like many Victim it gives. Which high Price ultimately also the Russian Population in favour pay must, by them like Lemmings in this War from their Leader Putin skilful become.
[28:58]Yes, and also draw. So draw also. And itself these Statement white me, that the Question, Sascha.
[29:10]We live not in Russia and we know, that Opposition there not so simple is, like we the here have. And from therefore must the each for itself check, can I there at all decide, like would I me behaviour want, like would I me behaviour can. So I think also, it gives Options and I hope for me in Commencement take to can, that I me also there different decide will. But whole many feel itself there, believe me, very caught in this System and See the not as real Freedom of choice.
[29:41]Yes, and where I also already under Pressure set see, this, what we Yes long years practical without real Touchstone also teach were able to, the humanistic Image of man and People are from itself from good and such Realities bring the already under Print. So at least mine Thesis, the Device under Print. And there can I now watch, place I my own Life concept as Mediator and humanistic Scholar in Question and on the Test bench or..., Aperture I the simple from, that the not all simple forced are, but must say, yes, the is perhaps but also, like also earlier in other totalitarian systems, that the Conditions are, the in addition lead, that People also want.
[30:34]The want or in the Senses one Weighing of interests for itself decide, the is at least the lower Evil. And the is for me easier, me so to behaviour.
[30:45]The have we Yes actually also in smaller Contexts, also in the world of work. So also there would we not say, all People are good, but also there have I the one and the others. So these Complexity, these Inconsistency, the is, believe me, whole important. Otherwise come we Yes fast in this Gutmenschentum. And in favour are we, believe me, also much to realistic. We experience even also People, the only about their Profit think about it, the Power interests represented, the not constructive on Things approach. Since gives it one History in addition, but the plays then in the Everyday life none Role, because other must with the Consequences live. Therefore is it for us always important, so to speak the whole Picture to look at and we engage us for one Excerpt, but it gives the other also. And therefore need we also other Behaviours and Reaction pattern. It is even not only ours Island, the would be us also to naive.
[31:50]And Sascha, perhaps still a Thought.
[31:52]Because you said have, you have there very much strong Reactions on yours Postings get, that you but as Mediator to the Neutrality obliged are. I feel me only obliged in the Frame, in the I me move and where I me so to speak contractual on it embedded have. When we as Mediators now say would, we would have to to all Neutral be, then would we us Yes something like that like one Muzzle miss. The would be for me almost so a anticipatory Obedience. The would for me as political Human not fit. The is not my Contribution for the Society, the I perform would like to.
[32:32]Yes, with the Point so to speak, there see I also the Mediation as Concept so to speak or on it can one good, believe me, again the Concept Mediation also prescribe and I think already, that we there also as Mediators from this Situation what take can for the Understanding from Mediation, whether it so to speak like long years Yes also very explicit expressed is, so one Alternative to the Law and so to speak the better Variant and the has what two Detached. The one, there goes it stop at Order and State and like this. And the other is stop, there goes it at the People and the is so like alternative. And the other is, and the becomes already clearly, it finds on the Base of the Right and in one Legal framework instead of and therein can Mediation thrive. And yes, the Request to the Mediation, the Yes with the Offer Mediation as Possibility of in Consideration to draw, also given is, sets Yes Parties, Parties to the conflict under Print.
[33:36]Mediation has so one dazzling Function, when you No in addition say, must you you justify. And the becomes in the Conflict resolution utilised. So in Operated, whole clear, da… When one Mediation offers, sets one the other under Print, the must itself there now first wriggle out, when he not wants. And the has Conflict resolution character. And the seems me still for the Lighting worth to be.
[34:06]Yes, for us is there already a more important Point. So when I Conflicts in the Working world so out, that Consequences arise and Consequences are Load from the Working atmosphere, less Productivity and so continue, then have I also one Responsibility in favour, again fit for work to become. Absolutely. The is ours Posture in addition. I will for ultimately mine Productivity paid, so must I also one Contribution perform, that them restored becomes. And the Mediation could one Possibility of be, again fit for work to become. And the see I already degree of freedom. It gives perhaps sometimes also good Reasons, Conflicts then not about Mediation to be carried out, but labour law or different. and the Responsibility see I then with the Party to the conflict. I experience the not in so one complete Dependence, there must I now Yes say, because everything other is undesirable, but I see the there also in the Responsibility. I have one Contribution to the Conflict achieved, there am I responsible, so must I now also one Contribution to the Solution perform, like always the looks. And the Print, the Joy not always large, the is again one other thing. We have the Yes also, that the then skilful become and first times with resistors there sit. And then may them decide, is good for the for me? Brings me these Mediation what? I can the first times test. And when not, then must I the Responsibility wear, nope, I go one other Path.
[35:33]And the Print, the you describe, is actually rather the expressed Pressure to change. So I find, it is even not relevant, whether the now one Mediation or a other Procedure after is. But actually means this Offer the Mediation now Yes actually nothing other, as that one Page, the Manager, the Employer says, listen times to, love Female employees, love Employees, until here and not continue. I take true, here is a Conflict. I would like, that this Conflict clarified, held, terminated becomes, solved becomes and that one Co-operation again possible is or, when it not more possible is, that we then also one Path of the Handling find. And the is actually a Pressure to change and the find I also whole healthy on the Position. It is less the Pressure for a certain Procedure, so experience I it at least not.
[36:28]I can me natural behind the Procedure then hide and say, yes, I have none Trestle on.
[36:33]No matter what. And when
[36:36]I me then lean back.
[36:37]Could and the Organisation says then, Yes good, when you there none Desire have, then make we nothing and leave everything at the Old people, then would be the natural fine. But the is to the Happiness, must one Yes say, also not the Reality, but then goes it stop one other Path.
[36:51]Yes, the is on each Case so one Consequence, when one Mediation also offers, that when the none Solution ideas develop and agree, that then also decided become must. Then can one not as Organisation say, OK, then stop not, was a Attempt worth, but when it stop none Solution gives, is good.
[37:13]
Mediation and its limits
[37:14]But then becomes so to speak already also both Pages from Mediation clearly, so both the opening Page as but also the concluding Page. And the seems me, it is not always so present in Mediation, it has so always very one-sided dazzling and in the political Discussions or in the political carried out conflicts, whether the in the Working world are or where them now also always also pop and the like and then comes Mediation ins Game, applies it even with to check, Which Page becomes now so to speak intended, ins Field to lead? Target there really one Clarification be, because a Room for Conversations there is? Or trades it itself at one Conflict, where a Room for Negotiations not there is? Because, her have the in the Post also so called, with Hate and Agitation is Conclusion. So it gives Points, the are not negotiable, because them outside, I take times the Concept of order of the Right, because them outside of the Right the legal Basics are.
[38:24]And that, believe me, must for Mediation, and therefore find I the Discussion for us Mediators important, clear become, that we not like so one mediative Trap grope. When the other Page, so when there one Page, the for my sake, what white me, for Remigration is now, says, then make we stop one Mediation, that one then itself allowed to say, the must I first times check, nope, so Mediation fits now actually even not, But the is not negotiable. And thereby gives it Conflicts about non-negotiable Values, where one also Mediation taste can and where it also sometimes worked has. But the hold I for very difficult, so schematic Solutions to have. And I find, them beat in Discussions so down, also with Colleagues.
[39:14]So for me would be always the Basic question, are the Parties to the conflict really interested on one real Exchange, on one Dialogue? Also when the whole contrary is. So when I a real Interest in on Opposite have, then are, believe me, also difficult Themes mediable. When the Whole but only one Alibi event is and Cloak from I am ready to the Conversation over it, then would I as Mediator not to the Disposition stand. The make I Yes on Act also fixed. So when one Party me Things offers and at the same time contrary in addition trades in the Everyday life or in other Statements, then fits the for me not together. The is for me then one Question the Credibility.
[40:02]But would that, so it can Yes be, but I can me now heavy introduce, that her none Mediation carries out, when her not before positive checked have, the have a real Interest in together and the want really one Clarification. I can me rather introduce, that her says, well, watch we times, like wide we jump here. So at the moment behave them itself still not like this, as when them interested together are. The is but actually the positive Result in the Mediation.
[40:28]And at the same time, when I in the Mediation then notice, that these Willingness to engage in dialogue not there is, that the one Alibi event is, we have also Mediations already had, where Things, the agreed were, then in the Everyday life ad absurd led were, where I notice, there is not one
[40:46]Readiness to the genuine.
[40:48]Dialogue or to one really constructive Act, then break I the Mediation also from.
[40:52]Yes, but Christian, you wanted still what say.
[40:57]I wanted supplement, that it for me natural always red Lines gives and that I with some Topics from from the outset exclude would, that it mediative editable is.
[41:10]Hate and Agitation, about it would like I even not negotiate. I can but try, the People to answer.
[41:18]In one Dialogue to reach and to understand, like comes it because in addition, that so one View originated is and leaves itself there so to speak a Understanding for the Person reach. So I would again whole clear differentiate, what is the Goal of the Whole? Goes it at the Dialogue, goes it at the Exchange, the human Encounter? And these Readiness must as Basic readiness there be, the must I a Piece wide bring along. The Art, like the carried out becomes or like itself the shows, the is natural not always each immediately possible, then also so to act and the to the Expression to bring. And the may itself in the Mediation develop. But when I with this Attitude, with this Thoughts go in, I have none Trestle on you and I talk here even not with you, then find I it difficult, when the from from the outset is certain. And exactly the same, when the Posture internal is, that the Goal the The event is, that you after mine Opinion have. So it must so one Willingness to engage in dialogue and so a Interest in there be. And you have already right. We Go more often in Mediations and superior, like wide come we because at all? The is so a Sounding out of the Space. And nevertheless have we as Minimal principle, I am ready, in these Event, in this Dialogue to Go and me the times to look at and me to contribute. And perhaps place we then fixed, it gives none sufficient large Intersection and therefore is a Together,
[42:44]One Co-operation not more possible. Yes, and there wants I also with pleasure the Lance for Mediators break, because there already clear becomes, like difficult and demanding these Labour is, both with the Decision, make I with, as also, what need the, so that the also take part, itself when them the Idea had and that one itself really step by step ventures forth. Only schematic say, yes, so when her really with each other clarify want, am I in the process, then gives it none Mediation. I believe, the is a Large part the Atmosphere, the Mediators spray, that them a so demanding Procedure build up, that it not realisation comes. And on the other Page, yes, I leave me on it in, knowing full well, I can me dirty make. I can in this Mediation come out and say, the was daft. The Inferior has still one above got. The Powerful has itself still more confirm can. Or I have craftsmanship Error made, because I thought, the get we somehow towards and then becomes it not. And it is simple really only so a Tippel-Tappel-Tour and one gets with, the is somehow difficult. It is at all not like this, like one it thought has on Beginning in the Education or like this, that one simple with open Poor welcome called becomes, finally Helps us one in the Conflict and fetches us from the Mud.
[44:12]Would be so beautiful, when the so would be, yes.
[44:14]Yes, exactly. Indeed, like with all Called. The would be genuine beautiful been.
[44:19]And from the Perspective is it natural total, total difficult for Beginners and Beginners out, in which Case take I now on and not. So the Ideal line, like you them straight described have, the is rather rare given. And when I the Corridor so whole narrow do, wars I after none Cases. And at the same time must I Yes check, believe I on it, that there a Negotiation room available is? And is the a Negotiation room, the in mine ethical and moral Range lies. Or lies the next to it and then would like I there also not one Contribution perform.
[45:01]Yes, and this Room perhaps to find. And I believe, there is the Point, and there can I also peace-orientated, so the very peace orientated Mediators understand, the say, let us but at least first one Table set. And when the Bullying page says or the Attacker side says, yes, I am ready to Negotiations, then let us but watch, that the Victim also Yes says. And then watch we times, perhaps get we Yes the Room. And there find I simple, are we like all other also always again in the Decision-making situation from undecidable Questions. We know it in the Moment not, but we must decide, say we Yes in addition and so that reinforce we also the Pressure on the Participants, Yes to the Mediation to say. Or say we, nope, the worthwhile itself here not. So that needs her as Participants or in the Trap as Victim not decide, I make there with. Yes. I find, there have we also one important Relief function.
[46:11]Yes, and what we more often already determine in ours Contexts, is, that then with pleasure unpleasant Themes on us as Mediators delegated become. So like go I so that um, when racist Themes in the Room stand, sexist Topics, Assaults? Since are we for us very clear, that the not medisable Themes are. The belong to sanctioned. And then can I in one accompanying Conversation look, like are the Effects? Gives it one Remorse? And it gives but whole clear… The would be so Victim-offender mediation talks,
[46:46]How I recently with… The is the Song direction.
[46:48]Where one watch can. But in favour needs it then actually also one real Insight. And it needs also Sanctions. And there would we not in Mediations go. These Enquiries lean we always from, because we say, the is Yours Job as Executives. The Responsibility lies with yourselves, these Things to sanction. And in this Frame is it Yes also possible. And there have I the Responsibility for one Work culture. And then can I not simple with Mediation the again wash clean. Since stand we not to the available.
[47:18]Yes, the reminds me on the last Conversation with, or on one the last Conversations with Hilke Kenke-Schwarz, the so to speak as TOA mediator it with Conversation structures to do has, where clear is, there gives it someone, the is criminal law responsible, the has Guilt charged and now can the Debt allocation itself again change, when he itself endeavours, so to speak for Equalisation to provide. And there was a Aspect, them checks even also, like so a little Protection factor for the Victim thinks the other serious. And below the Threshold of criminal liability can us the in operational Contexts even just as happen. It needs Sanctions on the one Page from the Power, from the Hierarchy and on the other Page can one watch, gives it there again one Equalisation requirement, a Conversation in favour. Yes, and these Victims' perspective in Inverted commas, the find I already whole important.
[48:17]So when now there after a Pressure from is created, I must me on something participate, what me not good does, what me possibly emotional Damage adds, mental Damage adds, then would be the Yes striking. So from our View is it important, that the on the Place then a real Offer is.
[48:36]But a Offer can Yes Pressure exercise.
[48:39]The is very important.
[48:40]But so a Offer practises Yes Pressure from. I find Yes Pressure there in the Moment also even not reprehensible, but itself clear to retain, the Offer from Mediation or to one Mediation practises Pressure to make decisions from.
[48:55]We would in so one Situation actually always also in the Preliminary talks the Weaker support and those also Courage make, No to say, when the for them harmonious is. We watch also clear, what need the? Has it what Healing, when I again in the Exchange come and perhaps one Remorse perceive? Or has it what Re-traumatising? And then make we those absolutely Courage, No to say. I am therefore none bad Employee, because I in so one Context one Mediation reject. The stands me to.
[49:28]And the means Yes but first on the Level before that, it practises Pressure to make decisions from. And No to one Mediation to say, stands from the Image from Mediation already in the Danger, the is now not OK. I believe, there may we as Mediators, the listen I also with you clear out, there may we attentive on it become.
[49:56]
Responsibility and decision-making pressure in mediation
[49:53]That we namely then clear say, there may it also a No give. And the is completely in Order.
[49:59]Since needs it also from us one clear Positioning in the Order clarification. As also opposite one Personnel department, one Manager.
[50:08]And what I good find, is, when we Alternatives then also to show.
[50:12]When the sensible are. So in so one Case could Yes the partisan Counselling about the Social counselling or other Instruments perhaps much more helpful for the Person be, the says, I have here one Damage more emotional Kind thereof worn and I feel me here clear inferior in the Situation. And then is it perhaps none Pressure to agree or none Print, in the Mediation to make, but rather these Decision, what is now actually from the offered Support instruments for me the Most suitable.
[50:48]So from therefore, I believe.
[50:49]Since is the Personnel department or the Persons, the the initiate, with us in the Responsibility to look, what are the best Options for all involved Persons. Yes, yes. and for the Organisation. And there have we then already so one Pre-probing.
[51:05]Yes. I consider, or have now again so Revue pass leave, so now to the End of the Conversation there, from the Question here, which Aspects we perhaps still not addressed have. So we have Yes so to the Duty of neutrality asked or must we simple, because we times A in the Education said have, now also B for the Time to the Education to all Conflicts Distance were, Equidistance and with each also the Good see. So where stand we with the Topic? So is the today Time a Test bench for the Ideas the Mediation, the from very, I says times really peace activists and peace orientated Times comes, so where Peace also one Reality was, in one Extent, like one it itself stop simple not dream leave can.
[52:03]And is it now like this, that we practical fall back social or goes simple one Phase from Illusions to End and we are in the Reality, the always there was. We have them perhaps only not seen before louder Employment with the Good of the People. And what means the for so ours Localisation as Mediator, the Yes but for many Personality development and identificatory Character has? Many realise itself Yes immediately to one 120-hour training programme as Mediators.
[52:47]I can for me only say, for me is the Part the VUCA world. And there has itself the World changed. As I before 20 years started have, was the World much clearer, much easier. And I could it me there more comfortable Set up with one Weltbild, with one Faith on one positive Basic equipment in the People. Today have we much more Aspects, the on us tug. And I believe, as Mediator seats I there right in the middle. I have exactly the same Requirements like other in the Working world or in the World on itself. It are very different Things. And my Claim is in fact, these Things somehow for me bearable to make and with each other to unite. And therefore give I certain Attitudes not on and at the same time must I experience, that on other Place the with Feet kicked become and the remains side by side stand and the is so mine to watch, like wars I the there, that I mine Things not give up must and at the same time the other Realities in the View have and also on it if necessary react must so I believe, the becomes itself not Change I believe not, that we again come back
[54:03]And I believe, the is exactly this Pain, the we there endure must. And I can me still remember, as we the first Training programmes together with Thomas Rupprecht made have. The has us as Instructor through the first Education led. And he was be Favourite word. The was so our Running Gag already always Ambiguity tolerance. And on it must I today more often think, because the is actually what, what I always more need. these Contradictions in me to endure and to accept. I must them not good find. I find it often incredible exhausting and also frustrating. And at the same time is it, like it is.
[54:43]Yes, many Thanks to.
[54:47]I supplement times, I believe, when we in this Uncertainty are, Keyword VUKA, then react People even whole much from their Stress patterns and have therefore not so one good Access on that, what them actually long-term good does and like them long-term co-operative their Needs fulfil can, but many Select then these archaic Conflict behaviour strategies. And there is Fighting simple one Reality. And the Co-operation and the Longing to Peace or the Search to Peace is not the first Choice. I go in the Fight or I make me from the Field. And therefore come we in this insecure Times Certainly also in Contact us with the Boundaries from Mediation, by we memorise my Opposite wants none Peace or behaves itself in each Case not like this, that we together Peace Find can and in addition must I me then also behaviour and for me is nevertheless Important I am to like before thereof convinced, that we long-term only Yes, yes. Through Co-operation, through a good Together, through ultimately Cohesion
[56:11]Getting ahead, benefit. I believe also, that the large The challenges our Time only together and not against each other solved become can. And from therefore is so the political Effort to advertise, like can we there again find back and like can we the more Room give. And the means at the same time even not, at each Price the to make and thereby itself itself with the own Values or with the own Attitudes to give up and then the Head round to draw. And the Tension ratio must we endure.
[56:47]Because the not the Base is, so Keyword Democracy, Rule of law, Democracy, Autocracy on the other Page. But I believe, there may we the Concept from Mediation already again categorise, Historic and could inclined be, hopefully to say, there must we stand up for in favour, there must we stand together and fight, otherwise goes the lost. And in this Frame finds Mediation then in turn instead of and the ultimately co-operative continues. The right, but the are sometimes so long Time span, that the Days, Weeks and years in between, where one hard against each other fought and confessed has, light overlooked. And I believe, the is one Time, where we the again clear get. I personally am so actually in the last months rather so again thrown back in the 90s, the I different experienced have, where simple Fight and Against each other on whole fundamental and complex Questions the Medium the Choice was. And the not the Period was, itself in the Chair circle to set.
[58:03]And it is then come, it is then grown, the was possible. And from the Mediation here find me, it is perhaps one interesting Paradox, that it in the Time, where it very Peaceful accompanied and where to the Example also in Germany always less before Court of law sued was and Mediation grown is, but by no means the intercepted has, what there now not more with Court of law lands. Because the Times so Peaceful were, that perhaps Mediation even one larger Opportunity has in Times, the itself even not afterwards feel. The find I actually one whole exciting Question for the next five until ten years. And the is one the few Questions, the me positive watch leaves, the to find out. Perhaps is Mediation really for these Times rather, has a stronger Growth or a stronger Awareness level, because it the small Rooms are in the larger social contested Arenas.
[59:02]And I can look, where am I itself effective. So the Mediation is one Invitation, itself at his own Matters to care and to good Results to come, without itself with the other more to argue. And so that can I Yes experience, that I in mine immediate Environment, in mine Close range actually what effect can and effective be can. The large Stage, there is the clear more difficult, there Influence to take and what to change. so very the Desirable and necessary is. From therefore, I can there good with with yours Thesis, that actually much in favour speaks, that the Mediation still stronger asked is, because the Longing becomes there be, at least in the Small Peace to reach, more peaceful to be, because the around it already so little peaceful is.
[59:55]The believe I also, this Moment the Helplessness, the paralyses yes. And then place I me natural also sometimes the Question of meaning, has the at all any Effect? And in the Just a moment, where I small Successes have, the Helps me then also to hold out. And not only the large Whole, what then sometimes heavy is to look at, but really the Frame, the I influence can.
[1:00:19]Yes, the would be desirable, when Mediation so the Air to the Breathe deeply gives and to the Rest, then but in turn so to speak that, where Fight necessary is, also enables and that it not so one, I says now times, so one Biedermeier Retreat offers, so in the small Self-help. Love Elke, prefer Christian, I Thank you yourselves, that her a delicate Topic, I find really a difficult, complex, delicate Topic, here with the Podcast with discussed have. The was very insightful, helpful. Many Thanks to in favour.
[1:01:01]
Reflection on mediation and its role
[1:01:02]Thank you for the exciting Exchange.
[1:01:04]Exactly.
[1:01:05]I wish you one good Time and we become probably in the one or other Discussion and in whole many Dialogues then still Opportunity have.
[1:01:14]Until there, everything Good,
[1:01:16]Sascha. Likewise. Ciao.
[1:01:17]Euch one good Time.
[1:01:21]Yes, the was my Conversation with the Mediation trainers Christian Bähner and Elke Sword sweep from Two view from Freiburg. Two whole experienced Trainers and Mediators, the in Economic and Organisational mediation specialised are, Experts are and there even also from the world of work. These Topics, the we today discussed have, experience and also requested get. So also we as Mediators requested are, what because with our Neutrality, with our Impartiality in Conflicts is, in those we perhaps not as Mediators requested are, but ours Ideas, like Conflicts processed become can, Whether we there also to the Neutrality obliged are, whether already Core values from Mediation, from Mediators in Question stand.
[1:02:22]And I have me with the both about most diverse Constellations maintain and Questions from Neutrality and watched, whether we so a little in the Thicket go in can and Clarity Find can between more professional Neutrality, the contractual agreed is, in political Neutrality, because we always also Citizens are or also so to speak with our Wholeness as Human justified Neutrality opposite others.
[1:02:56]The itself Yes even also in Attentiveness expresses, so that we first from the Good go out and so that one humanistic Image of man obliged are.
[1:03:05]We have about it spoken, like the Claim to neutrality in Mediations Expression Find can and what it means, when one not as Mediator requested is. We are from simple, clear Answers then always still times also in Dilemmas slipped and it is clear become, the are none simple Questions. So on the one Page, I make none Mediation, when clear is, that the Balance of power the Parties, the Parties to the conflict not touched become shall, but in the Mediation to the Carry come shall. Keyword Attacker and Offended, Victims of bullying, Bullying offenders, when one the times so in two striking Cases takes. And nevertheless but also in the Practice itself shows, we leave us on Mediation in, in the Hope, that itself on it something changes through the Mediation. And there again a Exchange, a Synchronisation enables is, that one behind the Facade of power look can, from both Pages from. And that the to the Business belongs to it, these Rooms to surmise and then to control, In the Hope, that it succeeds, them to Open and sometimes also with the Reality, that these Rooms not only not open were, but perhaps also even not existed in the Imaginary world the Parties.
[1:04:34]And that it even one Decision question is, to Start one Mediation, the one there not decide can, become these Rooms itself Open or also not. The Mediation can it in any case not promise. And the leads in ethical Dilemmas inside, from the one as Mediator with all Attitude, with all Conviction not comes out. Many Thanks to, that you here again with thereby were, with this Podcast episode to Questions political Neutrality from Mediators in and outside from Mediations. I say goodbye me with the best Wishes. Until to the next Times. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host from INKOVEMA – Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional mediation and coaching training.
[1:05:19]Music
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