INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#206 GddZ
Learning and teaching organisational consulting.
Podcast feature #05
In conversation with Christian Rieckmann and Robert Kademann
Christian Rieckmann, independent organisational consultant based in Kassel. His main areas of expertise are management coaching, facilitation for the design of communication processes in groups, organisational analysis and organisational design, as well as process consulting support for companies during change processes. His core competence is characterised by a content-based approach using a methodology focused on strategy and teams. From 2014 to 2024, Christian Rieckmann was a lecturer in the MBA courses Multidimensional Organisational Consulting (MDO) and Coaching-Organisational Consulting-Superrevision (COS) at the University of Kassel with a focus on organisational consulting.
Robert KademannOrganisational consultant (M.A.), qualified teacher, specialising in educational management and organisational development, coach, supervisor and mediator.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Contents
Chapter
0:02 Welcome to the podcast
1:36 Understanding organisational consulting
4:54 Coaching or organisational consulting?
9:17 Differences in the client role
15:46 The change in the counselling relationship
22:15 The diversity of counselling approaches
30:48 Training in organisational consulting
40:34 Internal vs. external consultants
45:08 Conclusion and outlook
Summary
In this episode of „Gut durch die Zeit“, I sat down with my colleagues Robert Kademann and Christian Rieckmann, both experienced organisational consultants, to take an in-depth look at the topic of organisational consulting. We discussed what organisational consulting actually is, how to learn it and what challenges exist when teaching this discipline. We also took a look at the upcoming training in organisational consulting, which will be offered at INKOVEMA from June 2025.
We discussed the many aspects of organisational consulting, from the personal experiences of the consultants to the specific demands placed on them and the differences between coaching and organisational consulting. Christian and Robert bring different perspectives to the table: While Christian emphasises that the individual and their role in the organisation are at the centre of our considerations, Robert highlights the challenges of being a client. This conversation makes it clear that it is time to see organisations not just as mere structures, but as living systems in which human interactions and relationships are of fundamental importance.
A central topic of our conversation was the Ability to "read" organisations and to understand which factors can influence the success or failure of an organisation. I often notice that clients come in with personal concerns, but it's important to keep the organisation as a whole in mind. We also talked about how to adapt to different roles in the context of organisational consulting - be it as a consultant, facilitator or coach - and how these roles interact with each other.
Another point was the need for thorough preparation for the consultation, especially when it comes to familiarising oneself with the specific organisation and its challenges. We agree that a comprehensive analysis of the organisational structure, its processes and cultural elements is crucial for the successful outcome of a consultation.
In addition, we have the Aspects of teaching and learning in organisational consulting were discussed. Robert and Christian shared their thoughts on how qualified training should be organised and which elements are particularly important in this context. It became clear that the right skills, a clear structure and an exchange with other experts are fundamental to successfully mastering the challenges that arise in the counselling process.
This episode therefore not only offers an insight into the world of organisational consulting, but also valuable approaches and considerations for anyone who would like to further their education or change in this area.
Full transcript
[0:02]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:00]Since are we again with Learning to read organisations. What is the for a Symptom? Where comes the here? What have I for one Idea? Where can I again have a look? Where can I perhaps on the Search go, with Whom must I speak, at the Topic to address and to look, like we so that deal with? Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and Greetings you to one new Consequence. Today goes it at Organisational consulting. What is that? How learns one that? The is Yes already one special Question And today have I me two Colleagues invited, the exactly the do, the not only Organisational consulting learnt have, the the namely also make and also now here with INKOVEMA as soon as also teach. So can one the correctly say. Christian Rieckmann and Robert Kademann, two designated Experts. Hello her both. Yes, hello and Thank you for the Invitation, Sascha. Hello Sascha, Thank you for the Invitation. Today shall it at these two Aspects go.
[1:00]Organisational consulting, that one somehow learn must and also the Gauges, because the also natural one The challenge is, this Field of activity other Willing near to bring. And the has natural also the Occasion, because her the here do become now, then from 2025 in the June becomes one Organisational consulting training take place, but the shall here now today already again a in terms of content Podcast and not only a Advertising podcast become, but a in terms of content Podcast, itself a clear Picture thereof to make,
[1:36]
Understanding organisational consulting
[1:33]what is the so Organisational consulting? The have we on the Place here already the one or other Paint discussed and Christian.
[1:41]You have in addition also one Podcast in addition started, where you with Colleagues really profound also the Topic pick up and edit, as also, I would with pleasure also with you with pleasure about it speak, what it means, this Order area Organisational consulting to teach, so other Topics. One Idea thereof to mediate, that them the itself then also can and on it to prepare. And me seems, and the was the Reason for the Podcast, that the already one Difference makes, whether I one Education teaching like Mediation or Coaching or Therapy, where we concrete People as Client have. And with Organisational consulting is stop naturally the Organisation the Client, the one not so right finds, the although one Address has, but whole many different Additions and like the Colleague from us, Rolf Balling, always says, the one but not kiss can. And the seems me a whole more striking Difference to be. Yes. Jan, say times, like is the with you with Organisational consulting?
[2:41]So I would like you on the one hand agree, on on the other hand you also contradict, because of course... Catch we the second to. Yes, good. So the is natural like this, the is always the Question, where is the Contact? So where kick you in Contact? And the is natural the Human. So one could think, where is there the Difference to the Example to the Coaching, because Organisational consulting often begins and also takes place in this typical Coaching setting. With Setting mine me, you are in the Slide, face-to-face is opposite, no matter whether now analogue or digital and you speak with one People. What there already one Difference makes, is.
[3:19]Although me, there come we Yes later still on it, in the Moment me also parallel from mine Claim through this Setting in one Coaching role perceive, so the Profession also need, is but this Human for me a Protagonist and provides so that one Contact surface, someone, the the Organisation me opposite in the Moment to the Expression brings, represent. And I think from Beginning on always with, what is the for one Organisation, what for one Role has this Human in the Organisation. And the runs as Parallel process, although I perhaps in the Conducting dialogue straight about mine Question technique or what it also straight is, very personally on this People to enter, first times whole with him am. And the is now, the is actually beautiful, the is like one Paradox. You could then say, all the more more I individual on this People enter and him also pick up, the Trust have, understand, all the more more am I straight thereby the Organisation closer, although I me Yes due to mine Intervention perhaps straight even not at the Organisation take care of. And in the Just a moment, where I then about the Organisation think about it, that, what I straight experience, as Expression this Systems perceive.
[4:38]All the more more can I then, although I Yes then on the other Page am, more for this People do and more Understanding for him have. The is the Field of tension, in the I me always move, independent of which,
[4:54]
Coaching or organisational consulting?
[4:50]that it then later natural also other Formats the Communication gives. I have there still not so a clear Picture, but you say Yes from the Field of tension. Robert, like is the with you? How speak you with organisations? I find very, very exciting, that the Christian straight about the Coaching in the Organisational consulting came. My Picture is actually the Question the Contracting authority. So who is actually the Client, the straight before me sits in the senses? Who is the counsellor, not Subject element? I believe, about it come I inside. And then applies it to one good Timing also to say, I believe, we are here even not more in the Coaching on the road, but it has itself the Format changed. And about the Person in the Organisation to have an impact, the is then the Idea behind it. And there is good to watch, who sits before me, with Whom speak I about the Organisation and is the the right Person, about the Themes to speak, about the we there even speak. What becomes a Audience, when one so to speak to be added would as silent Little mouse and one sees you both with one Person talk, what could one recognise, ah, the is now a Coaching and.
[5:56]On the other hand, ah, the is now Organisational consulting. Would one the lead can? So I mine yes, the Question, the I then scribe or perhaps already the Concerns with the Moment and when I says Coachee, would I this Term reluctantly utilise. I realise me not as Coach. I have only straight said, that I from the Profession one Coaches Intervention set can in mine Conversation management, in this Setting, that I the perceive. But when someone to me comes, explicit my Coaching to perceive, so also in the Coaching reflect you Yes the Organisational role always with, it is even not Supervision and already even not Therapy. But when someone to me comes with one Claim about his Role, about his Organisation, especially when he one shaping Role there has to speak.
[6:48]Then can be, that I whole fast, not only can be, in the Rule is it also like this, with him or her about the Organisation talk. So almost fachsimple Demand visualise and this Human, the me opposite sits, as such in his Personality at all none Topic is, where I also not check. Only, the said I straight with from the Profession of the Coachings then also sometimes coming, that I the Sensitivity have, this People so to perceive, that I not unreflected in one Kind from Specialist counselling dump, where I perhaps straight simple something about the Organisation explain, what By the way also a Part the Organisational consulting is. But always parallel in the Reflection is that, what I straight do, that, what straight my Opposite straight for itself, for be Concerns needs. But I take the Announcement, that it itself at a Concerns goes, like I to the Example one Organisation change can, already so serious, that I not start.
[7:55]I name it times like this, to psychologise, because I me there feel good, but natural also whole clear then with Structures, Processes or what also always remains, what then straight Topic is. We have Yes now only one whole explicit Situation singled out, so one Two-person conversation situation as Inverted commas Coaching situation or Organisational consulting. We come then later in addition, that it Certainly also whole other Settings gives, the it in the Coaching not gives, but the typically Organisational consulting then make up. Me went it therefore, for this Just a moment, I talk with other Persons and can I listen as Expert, Third, the is now Organisational consulting or the is Coaching. You said yes, Christian, straight the Concerns the Person. And there would have I now suspected to say, well, at the Coaching have I a Concerns the Person and with the Organisational consulting is the Concerns the Organisation, the me with pleasure through one Person natural mediates becomes, a Difference. But would I the listen, Robert, like would it the with you be, when you…
[8:57]You work in both Settings also. You are also Coach. Absolutely, exactly. And the perhaps also in the Difference, what with me often happens, is even from the one, from the personal Setting, the Coaching for my sake, in the Organisational consulting to get in, by we simple remember, the Object changed itself.
[9:17]
Differences in the client role
[9:16]I find the Question very, very interesting. I believe, when one as quieter Listener and Expert listens.
[9:23]Then would one it on it remember, that itself the Object even changed. Even not the Individual from the professional Role out, the reflexive Counselling format in Claim takes, but a likewise Expert from the Role out, the itself with as Technical expert for Organisations with me in one Counselling setting is located, in the even the Organisation Subject of consultation is. And there all possible Themes even discussed become, the for, I say times, the Client organisations helpful, necessary, purposeful, like also always are. I think, the is the Difference, the one actually listen would. So I have so the Presentation so to speak, that when I one Hierarchy take and I come always in the more responsible Functional castors one Organisation, that then also always stronger the organisational Element anyway from the Person out speaks, because them even for the Organisation Responsibility carries, while so to speak in the Hierarchy more below the Employees stronger their personal Role in the View have, not so very the Line or Management functions and there then also much less the Topic truncated becomes, the the entire or one Part the Organisation concerns. Lets itself the so simple say or would her today say, we demand in Organisations from all always this Overview perspective for the entire Organisation?
[10:48]I would with pleasure in Share contradict and agree. So agree can I in the Point, that... To the second Paint today. Perhaps draws itself the through, we become it see.
[10:56]Agree can I in the Point, that those Persons, the in the Hierarchy one Manager, so seen higher Leadership role take over, with pleasure in the Themes with the Organisation are. Since see I as Coach from the Role out but often also times one Horse's foot, because often goes it at very personal Topics. So the is then also the Contradiction inside. So sometimes is it also one beautiful Seduction, on the Organisation to look, although actually the Person in the Centre belongs. Quite is it but like this, that it but Role differences gives, like often the Themes then Object the Counselling are. And there have I but rather the Realisation won, that those, the higher in the Hierarchy are, already very exactly differentiate can between I am here in one Coaching setting and I need a Coaching for me as Person in mine Leadership role and I need Counselling to the Organisation. Rather from this People will I then also as Organisational consultant addressed. Mr Kardemann, You as, please.
[11:51]Against this notice I so in middle Positions, that the fluctuates. I search someone, the me supported, the me accompanied and so continue. Then will I often as Coach addressed and land in the Organisational consulting. So place I the rather fixed. The find I one good Point. But Christian, you want what say. Yes, so what you now Yes already through yours Question predestined have, Sascha, and I have the Yes also itself with introduced, the Topic this Deade. And the is Yes already very different. So it is Yes not like this, I catch with the Coaching on and then becomes it Organisational consulting vice versa, But it gives, and the is that, what I so exciting find in the Organisational consulting, what me also challenged and what I very with pleasure make and what I about the years also have learn must, what it but also not simple makes. Because it gives Yes not only the Decision, is the now a more person-centred Coaching? Is it perhaps more a even specialised Reflect one Organisation? I name the now simple times Consultancy.
[12:53]Or is it a Access, where one says, in the Senses one craftsman, we want times one Workshop make. Man prepares one Workshop before and he is in this explicit Role, I name the then Facilitation, someone, the one Workshop prepared. And then but in this Preparation phase, when one perhaps one Representative of the Systems has, with the one the then prepared, already Coaching competences needs, at not on any Wooden paths to come. Then but this Workshop makes, the one really, and the would I not as Organisational consulting designate.
[13:33]Although the Helpful is, when I the from the Background think along, but it is then one good Workshop to make and about the Contextualisation of the Workshops, especially when it a Process becomes, about several, come I then on Questions over, the then to the Example means, to what extent has that, what we here do.
[13:51]One Influence on the Organisation? But then notice you already, once as Facilitator, once as Coach come I pure and maybe, and the have I also in the last years increasingly experienced, that the People really with me simple times, so straight when you like this, the, where itself Organisations are located, the have perhaps their first ten years behind itself and now are them with 150 Female employees arrived, And then come them really, yes, we have there somehow, we work Yes whole good, but can you us not more tell, we have here so one Kind Organisation chart, peep but times on it, like sees because the out? And then are you really with those on Discuss, what it for, I say times also business management, you say now almost, the is not trivial, but so very classic Moulds would exist, like one a Organisation chart paint can and like one one Matrix look leave could and whether the fits or whether the one Project organisation is. You could the also again Coaching name, so a technical Coaching, but you are very, very wide away from the Person and any Drivers and what it otherwise everything very beautiful is, then in the Coaching even gives. I would have still one Constellation so to speak, at the Difference again clear make in this small Area. And then come we to the Points, the Organisational consulting as Work setting anyway still bring along and where then not more the Idea get along could. The is now Coaching.
[15:15]Constellation so to speak, it comes Person X and says, I have there a Concerns, I will one Management function take over in one Company, in the I already longer am, now come I in the Management function and I must there a little what saddle up and what the for me means and like I there mine Role fill in wants. Coaching. Professional Counselling setting, Coaching. It goes at Leadership, it goes at Role clarification, it goes at the own Positioning there. What makes the with me as Human and where lies there mine Professionalism in the
[15:46]
The change in the counselling relationship
[15:44]Perception this Role in this Organisation? I would the Coaching name. And the other Constellation is, it could with pleasure the Person be, but we leave times one Personnel department speak, says here, we have there one Person, the takes over now Management function, is already longer with us. We have there a Programme. Everyone, the in the Management position wants, must then a Coaching run through. The is not so to speak decisive, that he the Role gets, but when he them then inside has, must he the carry out and the would we with pleasure, that You the make. Is the now so to speak, because the Concerns from the Organisation written down in one Programme with Claims, Expectations for you then happens?
[16:25]Stronger stained from Organisational consulting or says her the same Work, as when the Person itself is coming? So for me is the The challenge in this Scenario, what you straight represented have, that I with this Triangulation professional deal with. Per se has the natural nothing automatically with Organisational consulting to do, but it is one other constellation, as when a Human as Private person to me comes, I would have with pleasure a Coaching, as also I have the also straight, you will requested, whether you in the Coaching pool Go would, then speak I the Personnel development with you and then have you the Reputation, and then send you the People, where you then check, come the voluntary, come the not voluntary, what is behind it, what means that, what for the Interest in has the Organisation, but the is Coaching. Okay, nice and fun. Robert, like is it with you? I have the Feeling, that it then to the Organisational consulting becomes, when I notice, so I am first very grateful, that we from the Conversation level of the Counselling settings come out. When I even notice, that not more the Question to the Counselling setting in the Room stands. So we need now times Coaching for this, we need now times Training in favour, but that we with one Objective on the road are, the Organisation shall or on End of the Paths would have we with pleasure. Or the and the are straight the Topics, the us on the Foot press. And I requested will, Human Mr Gardemann.
[17:44]What can we because do or following Path have we, where could them us support? And then have I the Feeling, now come we in the Level from Organisational consulting, in the it therefore goes, I says times most diverse Counselling formats targeted.
[17:58]Strategic also for the Organisation to orchestrate and to superior, where exactly is what helpful? When must which Level, with how, who, to which Goal in Contact us come and in which Format can the take place, who can the do? And then are we, believe me, on this Level the Organisational consulting on the road. Alone, that the Organisation inquires and says, we would have with pleasure, we would need, is for me often also simple times one whole helpful, professional necessary Triangulation from orders. The Difference is then, when the Format not more in the Field of vision is. I can the only agree, Sascha. Since bring I the Term Expectation management pure. So the to perceive and to look, what is it now and the is interesting, the has then so one Dual role. So anyway only the Doll in the Doll gives Yes this Picture. Since will I Yes again on one other Level Consultant, so I am Yes again Consultant that I to the Example one Reflection to this Differentiation first make it possible, what you straight said have and that I about it like from one Meta level in one, Role clarification, in what is the for a Process, what is it, what fits for Settings in addition and then am I whole strong in this Expertise the apart to hold and am could one now again say, in one Coach function for mine.
[19:13]Client system in the Moment to learn, what need we at all. And the can I but as Organisational consultant, because I not focussed am on mine Expertise, so very the also Psychological well-founded is, what I for Important consider. But I am not reduced and the is really now none Devaluation. I am there not the Thick board drill or limited, the is a beautiful Word, limited, but I can then in one other Profession jump and these Profession is then on once, like I already straight said, Facilitator or Overall process architecture or in one technical counselling Role And I can quasi oscillate in this various Roles, not everywhere in the same Professional depth, the is Yes clear, otherwise can you Yes everything, but you have the Definition competence and the Expectation management competence, these Differentiation introduce, at you then to decide, to what extent you in which Part straight go along or what you believe, where now the Organisations continue would. And the can so wide go, the name I then Process intensity, that so someone Third parties gets. Recommended, where says, the should there now times continue.
[20:28]I can not a Example in addition with in the Room feel. So it can Yes quite be, that one with one Consultant colleagues, one Consultant colleague co-operates in even one so triangulated Order clarification with one Team, the for Organisations responsible is. And then is one the both Colleagues even in moderating Role and tried, this Team meeting good to moderate, the Things to be noted.
[20:47]Simple one red Thread through the Meeting time to hold. And the, the other, is even Technical expert for Organisations in the Senses from, which Intervention is probably necessary and helpful, at that, what You as Goal formulated have, to reach. If necessary even in the Coach function, at first the Objective with each other at all to find out. So the is quite possible and there am I then actually in the Level from Organisational consulting, where me, like Christian straight said, also say can, and in favour would need You still someone, the this, the and that brings along and following Expertise in the Organisation flushes in. The Background this Settings as selected Question is natural the Question, what learn I because still in the Organisational consulting training? What need I because yet? And the is Yes like one small Chain sequence, when one itself the so consulting history looks at. The Therapist has itself also ask must, can I because a Coaching also do? So can I now simple a Business coaching do? I am Yes Therapist, have with People spoken. I can to their Innermost me preliminary questions. I have experienced, that the People itself open, sometimes even cry before Joy and then her Life change.
[21:50]So nothing lighter as the also in the Business coaching. And the Business coach asks itself, well, so then speak I stop with the Managing Director about organisational issues. Is also a Individual dialogue and what shall there now Organisational consulting still be? It can Yes be, it is simple one Question of the Settings or it gives even none Differences.
[22:15]
The diversity of counselling approaches
[22:10]It is simple only one pure Marketing question, still more Training programmes make to must. I have already the Assumption and go thereof from, one must for Organisational consulting even more bring along, not only on Bandwidth from work settings.
[22:27]But also again other Questions in the Individual dialogue. Therefore is this Two-way dialogue so a more beautiful Focus point, where one Differences work out can. We watch us times the other Settings to. You have it Yes said, several Disciplines. So so that must I the also again dissolve. So mine Practice sees so from, that I not always or mostly with Individuals to do have. Then sit two Managing Director before me or three Founder. So really such Constellations and the want about Organisations ponder and you feel of course, the have also their own Themes about the History and then lead you Individual interviews, perhaps even simple only by telephone and then are you very with this Persons, with their Intentions, with their Pain, with their History. So I says times full Coaching expertise in demand, Empathy.
[23:23]Active Listen, Multivational Interviewing, so whole Pallet, the you perhaps so have. But yours Goal is always, the is in the Background, what says the straight about their Organisation out? So Priority and not priority, what says the about this People out? But you must it think along. And then comes the first Situation. And the are you already Process architect been, because you perhaps in the first Enquiry, the one made has, said have, I would with pleasure these three Conversations lead. Somehow also always, already made, one Video, one Telephone, one has with me here sat. So like this, because the then still at the Corner was. And then beat you but before, and now leave them us again so one half Day or one Day so a Four-person setting make. And then sit you these four Founder opposite. And then are you already in the next Expertise, that you in the Reason first Moderator will, because in this Determination of concerns are you whole strong in one moderating Role. So you bring the ins Conversation. You do a Containment for the, that them to the first Paint in this Shape about their Organisation ponder from the individual Perspectives.
[24:30]The name I then already Moderation, one could it then also Team coaching name, so there would I me even not argue, but it is one other Expertise from this Slide. And then is on once Content in this Conversation, says someone, the is really now a concrete Example, you notice, like complex or like little reflected the Organisation itself developed has and then say you, Yes say You times, I notice here straight, the are so Your Product lines, the make You straight, in addition have You the, I name it Trades, so the Expertise on Board, leave us again one Matrix make and then sets itself one there, draws be Laptop out, makes one Excel list and then makes he long, OK, the are ours whole Products, ours Processes and in addition have we the and the and that. We have one Wood workshop, we have one Distribution. And then leaves you you the times so make and then write the the down and says, OK, for which Project line need them actually which their respective Trades? And on once wars I the Aha-experience, that them remember, them have two Organisational units, the always this Bottleneck have, because the from all Projects Used becomes, when other come. And the is one for me one hundred per cent organisational consulting Expertise, something like that to make and you are, I white even not, like I the now name shall, but I am in the Just a moment, except like I this Conversation lead, miles away from any Coaching removed.
[25:54]Hey, you, the this Podcast listens, forget not, him to Rate and one Feedback to give. Many Thanks to and now goes’s continue.
[26:07]Perhaps may I connect on it. You are Yes straight with the Format change been, Christian. And the is Yes nothing Arbitrary, but one Clarity about it to have, what needs the Organisation as Client actually straight and what thereof and like can I it good offer. The is, believe me, one. The was the Question, Sascha, what learn I still to this? Namely one Clarity about it to have, what needs it here straight and what can I from this Reason good safe offer. The Second, what me in addition still comes to mind, is in certain Wise also, I would it times name, Organisation read learn. So I have in mine Practice very, very different Forms of organisation, about the me, I says times, about the Persons, with those I in Contact us am, informed will. And there would like I Relative fast one Hunch thereof get, what happens there and which Questions can I place? What are Viewing points? What are Things, on the I still pay attention can?
[26:55]The means, somehow one Overview about it to have, like tick Organisations, like function Organisations, like different are also Organisations, what are the Things, on the one look can? Yes, would the also mean so to speak, that it one… So comes me now so in the Sense. So with one Coaching, when I there now very person-orientated am, think me, I wants nothing know from the Organisation, where the works or like this, what the make shall, but in the Conversation wants I the People get to know. And then can he me with pleasure tell, what he makes for one Job, but I wants know, like he in addition come is or biographical, in person, familiar etc. Coaching so to speak, so little Preparation and Organisational consulting have I rather the Impression, yes, the can me although tell, in which Company he works, but I look me the Organisation also again different to, not only through his Eyes, but I ready me before, I am said, I google, I will me inform.
[27:47]What is the for one Company, where stands the straight, what has the for one History behind itself, in which Context works this Roll carrier? Would her say, that it even whole formal considered more Preparation needs, more Knowledge, the the Client itself not bring can? The comes on it to. I would like the not so with pleasure so absolute, so flat rate say. Whilst you spoken have, have I immediately the Term Leadership, so Process responsibility. Responsibility. I feel me there already and in favour get you also Trust, that the Client system feels, you have one Idea, like one itself the Topic approach could. The is with me already very frequently at the First contact and it is very frequently occurred, that I there still offer, although perhaps the Offer still not out is, although I perhaps so still even not white, whether I one Order wars, that I say, leave You us still times a second Conversation make, the was today very interesting. When You something what them allowed is, to be issued. Strategy papers, a Organisation chart, so really Things. I make so to speak one Research and in this Research, the goes until to the Product description. I have me there already in the Satellite construction technical Descriptions from Architects read through, the I as not.
[29:04]Engineer so even not penetrate can, but nevertheless have I them scanned, because there were me Contexts clear and I have Hypotheses form can, what certain The challenges this Organisation are. And there wants I you completely agree, you must ready in addition be and you must then even say.
[29:23]Since have I best Experience, that when you the even say, so the would I also with pleasure in my Offer with install, I hold the for necessary, that we these Phase bring forward and then says I first exactly, what I believe, to the Example, whether it itself at all Sense makes, one Workshop to make. Then belongs to it for me in addition. But it is none Recipe, but the Readiness must there be. And I must the See and must it then also ready be to demand downright. For me is also that, what Desire makes, must I honest say. Exactly these Detective work a little to make an effort. And I would like also again contradict, Sascha. The draws itself so but through. It needs it not always. Similar like in the Coaching is sometimes the white Leaf also total helpful, by one itself explain and paint on leaves. But also the Detective work to make, itself times in most diverse Forms of organisation to think into it, times to superior, like works the here actually? How is the in Networks integrated and so more and so continued? And this Understanding to win, the makes it for me incredible appealing and the love I on this Topic Organisational consulting. So there have I on each Case the Impression, that Coaching experience Helpful is and total important. And the is also again not only other work settings, but also such Themes like Preparation, after which look me, with which Picture go I ran, on one Organisational consulting work, that the so for the more Education to the Organisational consultant, Slash Counsellor, Important is.
[30:48]
Training in organisational consulting
[30:49]How makes her that, this Teachings? So like leads one experienced Consultant on Organisational consulting ran? I have me… Since very many Thoughts made, because I Yes now through the last ten years, through mine Labour on the Uni and then have I Yes again two years on the Germans Academy of Psychology in Berlin, with the Topic Coaching worked as Co-lecturer and I am, there I rather this experienced Practitioner am, the so grown in is, the for me as Frame taken, at me with this Question very to deal with. Because the is not so light to answer. So you can Yes not say, you must the egg-length Wollmilchsau be. You must a more perfect Facilitator, Coach, Specialist advisor and what otherwise still Beautiful be added be.
[31:34]At the same time is the the Question as Organisational consulting, what does one there?
[31:39]So what must one can? And the is also for ours Education, there have Robert and I Yes strong on it worked, that we say, the is a Centre of gravity. So we must the thematise. We can the there partly mediate, but not in the Senses from qualify, because then would be it Yes at the same time one Coaching training, one Moderation training and otherwise still what. But that the clear is, that it there Distinctions gives and that it there Fields of expertise gives, in those I me as Organisational consultant different, deep, but nevertheless, in those should I me to deal with, there should I me qualify. And these Education must perform, that I in addition one very good Overview have, what from our Experience in favour very Helpful would be. I would perhaps again from one other Point of view on it look, namely it needs not absolutely one Coaching training, at in the Organisational consulting training to enter or itself with Organisational consulting to deal with. So I believe, that also all Professionals from other Counselling settings quite there bump into it. Since would like I a little from the own History come. I had none Organisational consulting training original, respectively had at all even not the Idea, the to do and realised in mine Counselling settings from Coaching, Supervision, Mediation and so more and so continued, that I always more on the Topic Organisation approach. And my Claim is it, and the has with Christian in the Correction regulation whole good worked out, there those, those it just as goes. The remember.
[33:06]The actual Client, the actual Subject of consultation is the Organisation and there need I Ideas, there need I Methods, there need I one mental Map, on the I Things localise can, these to the Disposition to place. The own Counselling format, in the I professional on the road am, is thereby total supportive. Since can I me the other with view. How many Shares the Supervision need me? Where gives it Things, where Conflicts to clarify are, where I sometimes also Mediator am, etc. The want we with commit and even these Map, the Read the Organisation still a little closer bring. The opens with me so the Picture, that it Helpful be likes, whether one Moderator is, so Education behind itself has or Coaching training or for my sake also one therapeutic Education. And the is just as Management experience, one business management Education, Project management, the belongs to everything in addition. Yes, the means, these Counselling settings, there would be I Certainly always a Part thereof practise and also experience. I have so what from Moderation belongs to in the Education or also times carried out. I may me not wonder, that I Moderate must, when I Organisations advise or also Individual discussions lead.
[34:13]But a large Aspect is already, Robert, you say always, I wants me about it Thoughts make. So I read the Organisation, the make I of course, when I not straight with someone talk must, but when I even with me and mine Thoughts am, Balance sheets read can, at least Management understanding develop and the Complexity from different Environments, legal Aspects, economic Aspects, also ethical or political, the one Role play. And the is so to speak something, what all Settings through, these World of thought ready to hold in the Conversations, itself not to lose in the Individual dialogue. Absolutely. I believe, our Claim was it.
[34:56]Both as also one Further training to have, in the I exactly these Thoughts good deepen can, where I but also concrete Tools of the trade on the Hand have, where I methodical launched will, where I from mine Co-participants quite one whole Quantity also learn along can, take with you can, where I me try out can and on End, I say times, a good filled Suitcase from Hand and Thinking tool with me have. I believe, the is the Plan. Because only in the Head on the road be Helps nothing. I must in any Shape intervene and there needs it good Repertoire of methods. And only Repertoire of methods brings also nothing, because then pack I one Method to the other from and the leads mostly also not to the desired Target. I look straight also on the Goals, Sascha, like you the advertised have. You bring Yes the Terms Organisational competence, Communication skills and Intervention expertise in. And these Organisational competence, I believe, there have we now in this Podcast already much above spoken, what Yes not misunderstood become shall. I am there the Expert for, but I must one Fun on it have, me with Organisations, with Organisations, Structures, Structure and Processes to deal with and must the Implication see.
[35:57]The it on the Rollers in Organisations has, the Perception from Guidance and many Things, the one Yes then in turn already again from the Coaching knows. Because in the Coaching come you Yes on this Role clarifications and the various Patterns, the one then with itself brings along, on it over. And the Communication skills, the is it, that you Yes permanent as Organisational consultant, whether with Groups, whether with Individuals, you are in Communication and you must that, what you related then on yours Function in this Role do, communicative, competent so represent can. Because you are not the one as Organisational consultant, the comes and like a Specialist advisor says, so so goes the times even not, only make them times one Value stream organisation and then becomes the Loading run. The is one Counselling competence, the gives it, the is but one other, the from Management consultancies utilised become, the different analyse, different work, the subsume I not.
[37:00]As that, what one as Organisational consultant Primary does. And then again the Last, the Intervention competence. Since are you again or are you already very close then on Coaching or also on the Mediation. Yes, or also the Setting. Determine. When worthwhile itself a Workshop and who must when with Whom talk? So the is believe I already so the on most likely still Specialist counselling, that we Decisions or Recommendations meet in the Organisational consulting. Who should when with Whom talk, where worthwhile it itself to be applied. So when I now as Individual counsellor experience or as Coach, there comes now the fifth Client from the Company with the same Topic.
[37:36]Overload and Disorganisation, then can one say, OK, I hold the from, there come still more Coaching clients and I make Coaching. Or perhaps must one times elsewhere apply, at the Problem to solve, that there obviously very many are, the overloaded and disorganised Workplaces have. But perhaps are it also only whole few, the but even then to the Coach go. But one other View on it take again, one other Perspective on the Organisation and so that on the Environment, the so Persons take. And there come me equal so one Group from Persons with in the View, the if necessary also so the internal Organisational consultant, Organisational developer, internal Coaches etc. Are, where we but frequently remember, that the with even Group settings good get along, that the good in the individual Counselling are, but but very often these Organisational glasses also have on and if necessary introduce also one Responsibility in favour, there if necessary also remember, and here need I still a little Tool and the Find that. What must the learn? So the are used to, Workshops to organise, Trainings to participate, individually to advise, but what is for the internal? Because for the is the Yes also, her have Yes whole explicit also internal Consultant as.
[38:46]Training candidates in the Focus. What learn the on most likely? You have Yes straight a beautiful Example called. Since comes the third Person with the Symptoms of overload. And there are we again with Learning to read organisations. What is the for a Symptom? Where comes the here? What have I for one Idea? Where could I again have a look? Where can I perhaps on the Search go, with Whom must I speak, at the Topic to address and to look, like we so that deal with? I believe, the can one of the Whole be. Plus Maintenance management, had Christian earlier addressed, to look, with Whom go I on the Table and to what extent can I clarify, what about it here goes, what we now so that Hire can. Yes, and what believe I me as Internal, so there speak I Yes really from Experience, there I the many years was also in the Organisation.
[39:26]Man called itself then still not Organisational consultant, one has itself perhaps more so felt, one was then Trainer, Moderator, what also always called. But the Expertise, the one developed has, but also the, I says now times, Modesty, the one develop must. Man is then already often internal one Resource, one is in Projects integrated and now make times 20 Workshops and Topic Introduction from Self-examination. Or it gives one new Management organisation, the is in the Management Board decided, the must realised become, therefore must now 20 Workshops made become, so that the People the understand, what the is and then also in the high Participation level their Rollers develop and look, like them now more their Processes there represent. Since are you little in the Claim, that you the Designer are. And the is already interesting. So the is now natural in this Self-employment, in the I am, about the years. To me come People, the want their Organisation change, the want grow, the want build up and the expect from you quasi so like so one Guidance, so like so a Mentoring. How can we so one Change process per se approach?
[40:34]
Internal vs. external consultants
[40:32]What belongs to in addition, what belongs to not to this? The is this specialised consulting Claim, the you then through the Administrative management a Piece rejects, because you have Yes none Ideal model in favour, but you give then already…
[40:45]That you one Idea have, like this Process the Change developed become can and like so one Change architecture look can with most different Interventions. And I must say, these Expertise was at least with me Consultancy internal little requested, because the were Specifications of the Managements, the the before with Management Consultancy already clapped out had. We were Converter. But the is one Hypothesis, the must Yes not so look with the Individuals. I believe also, what there still additional on Expertise stick in could, is simple, that I mine Function as Sensor for the Organisation clear better perceive can. Because that, what I hear, see, feel, can I better in Vessels pack and look, where go I so that there. What make I with it, at then the to do, what Christian straight said, itself to superior and what is because now the right Point of view on it and one Idea, like we for the Organisation purposeful intervene. I would like again on one, what me on Hearts lies, Sascha, because the also really a Claim from Robert and me is. Me is in the last years very clear become and the find I also beautiful with Inko Wehmer, you have you Yes not clear positioned, systemic Counselling or what also always, but the is Yes open. And I hold in the Organisational consulting, the name I the different Approaches. We have much about that, what one does, spoken.
[42:02]And a Approach is, natural is a more systemic Counselling approach marvellous. I look on Pattern, I look on the Communication, I look on Self-referentiality. But it gives Yes also one other Approach, the is even the Ideal model from the Business management. And I find, the should next to it stand and there should one itself also with to deal with. Then would have we already two. And the third is, the Yes very strong from the Psychology Driven is, the psychodynamic, where one itself again with one other Perspective the Organisation is approaching, plus, that one still the socio-technical has, the now not more so en vogue is, but the also his Advantages has. And I juggle for me with this four approaches, because I white, each to Situation, to Enterprise Helps me the one Approach more, but I preach the not, but I have the as Background, as Sample and then notice I like this, well, there gives it a great Element, to the Example from the Psychodynamics for more Fear organisation, the is very depth psychology, there can you with work and then come you in one Realisation phase, where you say, OK, and now are you really on so one business management Level, let us times Organisation charts paint. And these Variance, the is Yes like so one Matrix, next to the, what we straight said have, Coaching, Moderation, Specialist counselling, Project management, the results in then in the Total mix.
[43:20]The whole specific Expertise according to yours own History as Human, the you as Consultant with bring in. And the is my Target, the would like I in the Further training on each Case mediate, as a Overall model, where then the Individuals itself natural Search can, where feel them itself to Home and what make them from it. The wants I also reassure, respectively knew I the yes, as I you also requested have in addition, that the then here none disguised Luhmann seminar becomes, but really Organisational consulting remains. And one not here tries one-sided the Vocabulary from Niklas Luhmann somehow Define to can and then so that tried, on the System somehow then to transfer or to impose.
[44:00]Many things is but even connectable, when one alone the Term the Role takes, then are we in one sociological, system-theoretical Approach inside, also when one the different again interpret can. But I find the straight the Stimulating, that her there, and you Christian, also since Decades already really not only one good Mixture you bring with you, but also, I says times, so one Elder Statement, Seriousness. I can also one Balance sheet read.
[44:28]I white also business management, what one Organisation make out must. The goes Yes frequently lost, when we so new Fashions and Tendencies from Organisational considerations sees, that it but even also these Glasses always still gives. And the is even not one outdated Point of view, but it is one whole real Necessity, the to think along and to work with. I would like but one reject, something so narrowed down, not, that there false Maintenance comes. Yes, no, the is only with the Balance sheet read. So I find yours Point very right. I believe, the is a good Example. So I am none Business economist. I see the Dimension, and I would them with pleasure
[45:08]
Conclusion and outlook
[45:07]really right good read can. I would it much Helpful find, but there should me, there should it Yes someone in the Team have or someone other, also internal, when it relevant would be. But the is a good Example. I can Yes not everything can. And the is but something, where I say, the can on certain Points very Important be, because when the with the Coal not right, then can we whole other Processes first forget and then can I perhaps systemic again on it watch, for which stands that. The are so the Things, but nevertheless.
[45:34]I itself am there not the Analyst the Stuff, now look we us times Your Balance sheets on and then get you for me one Analysis. The would be then to the Place simple the for unprofessional. The can I not. Good, her both. I am insane happy, that her these Education together approached are, designed have, carried out have, now in the May again Start become and happy me on it. And also the Conversation was for me very enlightening, again also deepened the Approach and the Perspectives from you to listen. Many Thanks to, Robert, Christian. Yes, so Thank you also for the Frame. The has me now also very much Fun made. The is Yes crazy, when one about it talks, becomes to third. The becomes Yes even itself always still times again what clear.
[46:18]I swear, also Robert, have we us again a little more got to know straight. And Sascha, yours Questions also. Yes, and I must you the also return. You give the Container, you give the Frame, Sascha, you do the Whole. And the find I very beautiful, because I there white, I can something play. I was with you in Leipzig, yours Rooms. The is a more beautiful Location and there happy I me also on it, that I me there also simple then fall leave can and say, OK, it goes to the INKOVEMA and now must you although in yours Profession deliver, but at the same time need you you at many Things also not care. Since happy I me very above. Will on each Case good and today was it also still very pleasant about it beyond. Many Thanks to, Sascha. Yes, pleased me, Robert, that you the Pleasant of the cold Water, in the we you thrown have, savour could. Good, many Thanks to. Ciao and until soon. Make’s good. Yes, do’s good. Ciao. My Conversation with the both Trainers for Organisational consulting, Robert Kademann and Christian Rieckmann. We have about Organisational consulting, Learning and Gauges spoken, Differences to other Training programmes mentioned and tried.
[47:27]Pointed, profiled Differences determine, at clear to make, what it means, the Organisation in the Counselling interview with in the View to retain, in the Head to have and to think along with the Question to the next Intervention and Hypothesising. When you the please has and you this Podcast still not subscribed have, then get the to, recommend him with pleasure more and leave a Feedback and one small Valuation on Apple Podcast or on yours Podcast-Catcher, the you use. I thank you me, that you here present were, listened in have, thought along have. Until to the next Times. Come good through the Time. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes and from May 2005 also for Organisational consulting. Until there, had you probably.
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