INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#201 GddZ – The vertical and horizontal communication system
How communication efforts ignore – and escalate.
In conversation with Dr Peter Modler
Dr Peter ModlerManagement consultant, coach and bestselling author. He has been running his own management consultancy in Freiburg im Breisgau since 1998, specialising in company restructuring, coaching and management development.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Chapter
0:04 – Welcome to the podcast
1:36 – About communication systems
6:38 – From academics and practitioners
11:56 – Communication patterns in everyday life
17:56 – Rank and territory
23:43 – The power of rank recognition
33:30 – The bilingualism of managers
35:25 – Understanding political communication
38:46 – Importance of non-verbal communication
42:02 – Escalation levels in the vertical system
44:16 – Preview of the next episode
Summary of content
In this episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", I explore the complex topic of verbal disputes and conflicts in the context of different communication systems with Dr Peter Modler. Our conversation aims to develop a develop a better understanding of the dynamics between horizontal and vertical communication patterns and how these patterns can often lead to misunderstandings and escalations.
Dr Modler brings an interesting perspective based on his diverse experience. Having come from a career in the trades and academia, he has developed a deep understanding of the different communication styles that emerge in different social and professional contexts. We discuss how, as an academic on the building site, he learnt that the linguistic patterns and forms of communication on site are completely different to what he was familiar with from the academic world. Here it becomes clear that the different approaches to communication are not necessarily negative, but rather reflect different needs and expectations.
A central topic of our discussion is the concept of rank and territory in communication systems. Dr Modler explains that vertical communicators primarily strive for rank clarification, while horizontal communicators place more value on affiliation and content. This often leads to misunderstandings when, for example, a senior doctor tries to communicate productively in a meeting while her superior signals that the hierarchy is more important to him than the actual content of the conversation. Using illustrative examples from his everyday professional life, it becomes clear how essential an understanding of these dynamic effects is for successful communication.
In the course of the episode, we work out how important it is as a manager to Ability to communicate "bilingually" that makes it possible to navigate between horizontal and vertical patterns. It describes the contradictions that arise when different systems collide. It becomes clear that effective communication requires not only knowledge of the other side, but also an attitude of respect and a genuine interest in understanding the perspectives of the other.
We also shed light on how personal and social polarisation arises in communication and how these elements can lead to inefficient meetings and poor team dynamics in the corporate context. Dr Modler notes that the key to overcoming these challenges often lies in stepping out of your own bubble and actively seeking dialogue with different communication patterns rather than judging or ignoring them.
Finally, we talk about how each of us can benefit from a more conscious examination of our own communication patterns and a willingness to understand those of others. This episode offers not only valuable insights for leaders and communicators, but also practical suggestions for how we can speak more constructively with each other in our daily lives.
Origins Deborah Tannen:
Dr Peter Modler's journalistic work is largely based on the research of Professor Deborah Tannen from the USA. Deborah Tannen is a renowned American sociolinguist and bestselling author who has intensively analysed communication patterns between men and women. Her most important works include
- You just can't understand me: Why men and women talk past each other (1990): This book examines the different communication styles of men and women and how these can lead to misunderstandings. It was on the New York Times bestseller list for almost four years and has been translated into 30 languages. WIKIPEDIA
- I didn‘t say that! Communication problems in everyday life (1986): Tannen analyses here how different conversational styles can influence relationships and lead to misunderstandings.
- Job talk. How women and men talk to each other in the workplace (1994): In this work, she sheds light on communication dynamics in the workplace and how gender differences influence interaction.
- Let's argue properly. The creative handling of useful contradictions (1998): Tannen discusses the constructive handling of conflicts and how different dispute cultures can lead to better results.
In addition to these popular science books, Tannen has written numerous academic publications, including „Conversational Style: Analysing Talk Among Friends“ (1984) and „Talking Voices: Repetition, Dialogue, and Imagery in Conversational Discourse“ (1989). DEBORAH TANNEN
Her work has made a significant contribution to deepening our understanding of gender-specific communication styles and emphasising the importance of language in interpersonal relationships.
Complete transcription:
[0:00]One Manager, the their Job really good makes, the should from mine View doubtful be.
[0:04]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:05]And although no matter, which Home system to have. Whether it someone is, the horizontal communicates or whether it someone is, the Vertical communicated. Cordially welcome to the Podcast Acute through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence.
[0:25]In the today Consequence want we us with verbal Disputes employ. So in the Reason taken that, what we one Conflict name. And then a Communication concept us to Gems lead, the my today's Podcast guest for the German-speaking World formulated has. In Leaning on a already something older Communication concept from America. But the whole interesting Insights receives, Why? Sometimes the Persons one communication system so completely perish in the Debate against the Persons, the the other Communication system utilise. And before we on it Content enter, welcome I first here in the Podcast studio Dr. Peter Modler. Hello. Hello Mr Weigel. You have in the last years itself with this Concept of the vertical and horizontal communication system dealt with, You have in addition several Books written, special Trainings, also especially for Women. And it is not absolutely the Origin Your Activity. You come actually from whole other areas.
[1:33]And therefore first times a pair Words to You. How are You in addition come? And what is for You the Fascinating on it, that You itself with this Topic of the horizontal, vertical communication system and so that with Conflict escalation keep busy?
[1:48]Well, I have in mine own Professional life very different group-specific Communication properties got to know. I have one While on the Building worked, I have one structural engineering Education as Carpenter. The means, I have as Academics, I had namely before already studied, I came as Academics on the Construction sites. I was 25, I was the academic Argumentation and Polite slang used to, came then on the Construction sites and had to remember, that the People on this Construction sites in one completely others, me total foreign Wise communicate. What me on Beginning very irritated has, until I then at some point times understood have, that there hardly something detrimental meant is, only the Sample the Communication are even completely different. So You realised, that You it not personally take must, when You there something rough approached were?
[2:42]Whole exactly. I white today yet, I had to Trial work, at me at all one Apprenticeship earn to must, so two Weeks free of charge on the Roof. And there white I yet, on first working day, as I there started have, all found it a little funny, that a Student with 25 now there one Apprenticeship wants. On first Day, as I then there a Tool to the other got have, have I me for each Tool thanks. So one Saw got, Thank you. One Pliers got, Thank you. One Spanner got, Thank you. Until me the Polisher said has, still a Thank you. And I hau you so on the Fresse, that it you passes. At the latest there was me clear. I come from the Ore Mountains, I have straight some Flashbacks.
[3:24]And You have it not personally taken? So You have itself then not excused and said, Thank you for the Note.
[3:32]Well, so in any case was it irritating for one Academics. With the Time have I then simple understood, that the Pattern, the linguistic Pattern, the in this Context applied become, even simple completely other linguistic Sample are, but even nothing so that to do have, that me there someone ready make wants. But the were even Pattern. And when I me on these Sample embedded have, there could I there very good live. So I have with the Colleagues a whole outstanding Ratio had. It gives there Yes on the Building then, before all when them on the Roof work, one Quantity Situations. Since hangs her Survival thereof from, that them other People blind trust. The was also like this. So the Loyalty and the Solidarity was very large, but with perfect other communicative Tools. After I then on the Building worked have, have I mine Promotion ready made. Am then as Career changer Managing Director from one large Publishing house become. The is now everything already again 30 years, perhaps even 40. Perhaps are Yes some Academics also below listen. What have You a doctorate? I have in more catholic Theology doctorate, but never active as Theologian worked. Whereby I for the Study itself until today grateful am, because these humanities Studies one in the Rule, before all, when one then in Management positions works.
[4:51]One whole enormous Horizon open, the You with one Narrow-gauge studies, I hope, the Business economist forgive me the now, when You with one Business studies in one Company management go, then is the even a bigger Difference, because You from from the outset in Profit and Statements of loss think, or in Business management Key figures. Whilst You as Humanities scholar come in, must You itself the although acquire, But them think anyway much more long-term. So a Year means for one Humanities scholar what other as for one Business economist. In this respect would I times the bold Thesis by the way mention, Humanities scholar in Management positions can lighter strategic think. I was there Relative successful, the Company then complete restructure must. And because the itself got around has, like Successful I so that was, gave it then already the first Counselling requests other Companies. And at some point were the so a lot, that I then complete changed am.
[5:46]Counselling requests with regard to Your Knowledge of business administration at the Restructure from Companies or so to speak of the Handling with so one Change within one Company, so one Change? It went actually at the Restructuring. So I have the Company restructured successful. After itself the got around had, came other Companies and wanted also something like that have. The Restructuring was therefore successful, because the in the Contrast to the Status before itself whole consistent to Markets aligned has. So Market analyses made and then the Company on these Markets towards structured. And exactly the wanted then one Company to the other outside mine then current Employer also have. And so at some point were the Enquiries so a lot, that I then mine own Management Consultancy established have. It is also already again many years here. So also the Market aligned. The have I before some years not more made, the Refurbishments.
[6:38]
From academics and practitioners
[6:39]But have me completely concentrated on the Accompaniment from Executives in Crisis situations.
[6:45]And so are then also mine Books was created. And with one Topic, the itself through the Books through, so also when them thematic itself so to speak different Target groups to dedicate, Moderators, Women, sometimes also political Discussants or at least Persons, the in verbal Disputes act and now not there in the Dialogue advised want, but really in the Discussion remain, political Debates or also in Meetings, draws itself this Communication system through, the You so with vertical, horizontal Communication system describe or also title. Before we there deeper get in, still so the Point, You have Yes so different Disciplines in the Academics shown and Your Origin or at least temporary Working on the Construction, on the Roof, the are for You, when I so say may, not various Disciplines simple only, but You make one clear Cut between Academics and Non-academics.
[7:41]Yes, so clear would I it perhaps not make. It gives Yes now also times one Series from academics, the not Academic socialised been are. The Supermarket cashier, the itself in their Leisure time training, Secondary school leaving certificate makes, then on the second Educational pathway the A-levels and then at some point studied, the is Yes there also at some point Academic, has but one completely other Background as someone, the from one Academic family comes and none Hunch has, like it in the Supermarket on the Cash desk is approaching. So one must the one communication system, what one with Security not in the University learns, the must one experienced have and itself therein Moves have, at it understand to can?
[8:19]So I believe even not times, that one the everything itself experienced have must, but what one learn can and what I also try in mine Workshops to pass on, I should one Alertness and one unprejudiced Openness in favour have and not therefore something down, because it not in mine Sample fits. So when I it hide, then aperture I simple Communication content from, the Consequences have becomes. In one mine Books with Ignoramuses speak, there means Yes the Subtitle, Who only argued, loses. The is so a Classics. So there meet two Pages on top of each other. The one Page brings in fastest Diction a Argument to the other and holds these Kind the Communication for naturally and self-explanatory, while on the other Page large Breaks are created. And then whole simple Sentence constructions used become, so Argument, Argument, Argument and on the other Page says then someone, nope, stupid Mouse and then says he, is but Rubbish.
[9:23]Somehow like this, yes, and like this. And then, what means the then for the Page, the there used to is, that there argumentative proceeded becomes, thinks itself then, yes, the is stop a little limited or the is stop daft, the is stop ignorant.
[9:34]Instead of to perceive, that that, what these other Page makes, also Communication is, only stop none fast argumentative Chain of reasoning, the these Academic educated Page for decades trained has. Therefore is it none bad Communication, it is one other. The watch we us more accurate to, because as this Book written was, was somehow clear, what about it there went. It was so in the Time of the Revenue from Donald Trump. Man has desperate tries to understand, what there happens. Man has itself funny above made, like he in Debates looks, like he discussed and nevertheless seemed it like this, that he Points made has. And the was so a little the Emergence. It was somehow clear, who is the Ignorant or who are the Ignorant people?
[10:23]Now have I Yes the Impression also, that them, when we the hide would, says I now times, the Academics, Click, also the Politicians, the largely Academic formed are, then are the Yes also Ignorant people. So Ignoramuses have we somehow on both Pages, so to speak the comprehensive Thomas. But it seems Differences to give in the Ignore. When You allow, I would times a Example tell, that one before a pair months encounters is. Because we can here much about Trump talk. Sure, the draws ours Attention enormous on itself, but in Reality goes it Yes not at Trump. So it gives one Quantity this Trump figures, naturally also in German Companies and The company and By the way also in Universities. The hot stop different, behaviour itself but similar. The Scene, the I tell, forms in one Clinic, high respected Clinic.
[11:09]And once in the week meets itself the Head of clinic with the Senior physician to the Jurfix. These Senior physician comes in be Office pure with one long List from Topics, the them with him discuss wants or where them his Decision needs. This Head of clinic has never something on the Table lie, when the comes in. It is always a firmer Date. It is always 15 Clock, so it is not surprising for him, but when the then comes in, stands he still on his Desk and on the phone. Or he catches even on to phone, when them comes in. Well, good, so a little stupid. Then wags he there so with his Hand, shall itself sit down. Then sets itself the Mrs, what probably the first Error was, but them sets itself and then comfortable itself the Boss also on the Table to come,
[11:56]
Communication patterns in everyday life
[11:51]sets itself in addition, etches itself in his Armchair pure and says only and. And then catches the well-behaved to, accordingly their List of questions or List of topics to report. What is now in one week happened? Which Problems are emerged? What needs them for Decisions in the middle? You has the whole Time the Feeling, he listens her not right to. You thematised it but not. You finds it also to shameful, the to thematise. At some point fetches this Type one Tacker from the Desk, sets itself there, works the Tacker on, draws one Tacker needle out, while them continues and catches to, itself with this bent up Tacker needle the Fingernails clean to make. The finds them super embarrassing. Embarrassing?
[12:33]But them finds be Behaviour, them is in the reason, ashamed them itself foreign for this ridiculous Act from dem. But them ignored it and remains on their List of topics. He says always only, while he itself the Fingernails clean makes, always only the hmm, hmm, hmm.
[12:48]And the poor Mrs puzzles, what them already again wrong made has. Yes, and the goes even for weeks like this. So the came with in one Workshop, has these Scene tells, one this many Scenes, the one then there so listens, what in Companies communicative expires, the one in the Reason the Shoe move out before Stranger shaming.
[13:06]But the Typical for someone from their System, the is someone, the from the horizontal System comes, this Senior physician, the Typical is, that one in so one Situation in one such Helplessness device, that one the then prefer ignored, continues with the own System, also when it at all nothing benefits. And in the Case has it also even nothing utilised. So the Hour was over, the Boss terminated the Conversation and says, yes, Hour over, Thank you. You has practical nothing had of which. He has her also never listened to. Then goes them out and goes and has already Fear before the next week, where the Whole again expire becomes. Since meet these two Systems, the You addressed have, on one whole lousy Wise on top of each other. Namely these horizontal People, their System through two Axles defined becomes. The one Axle is the Axle the Affiliation. The other Axle is the Axle the Contents. The means, that this System to the Example on one Discussion from the first Second in the Content mode itself is located. The other System has but not these both Axles. The other System, the complementary System, the so-called vertical System, follows the Axles Rank and Precinct. Hear itself a little archaic on and natural can one itself as Academics immediately ask, OK, when there Rank and Precinct stands, where are because there the Contents?
[14:33]Exactly, the Underpinning sense. The Senior physician, the Boss should so at some point times also Contents planned have. Yes, it is in any case first already times clear, when there the one System with Messages of belonging and Content readiness goes in in the Confrontation, the other System but with one Rank and Need for territory, then is actually predictable, that without Interpreter become we a Problem get. The Interpretation would be completely in the Crazy leading, when I now start would, well, them belongs to stop still not to the Group from Female bosses. And the makes he her clearly. So Affiliation is, so that them not belongs to it, is not the Message from his vertical System. Well, I would it times so say, these both Systems, when the in this Room come in, the have other Needs and the behaviour itself also different.
[15:26]The Mrs goes thereof from, is actually no matter, whether it now one Mrs or a Man is, it gives also horizontal communicating Men. These Mrs in any case goes pure and thinks itself, we have Yes now ours Meeting date, so have I me prepared, so talk we now about Contents. I come pure and am zap in the Content mode. And I will checked on the Contents, I must now good be. And I am also ready, him from the first Second, when I the Threshold to this Room exceed, give I the Affiliation mark. So I smile, I Greetings friendly, I keep me not. Ah, there is Affiliation inside. The is Affiliation, because the make Horizontal. Comes not to late. Man comes not to late. Groundless in one Tree smile in with louder foreign People, the make Horizontal. Vertical make the not. The can also smile, the smile but then, when them it appropriate find.
[16:16]When them a little to below smile can. The would be then again one Variant. Comes the so with their Affiliation mark, with their Content readiness pure and thinks, the other Page is also so like I and has the same Sample like I and expected so from the other Page also Affiliation symbol and also a content Enter on the Questions. The other Page on their part located itself in one other System and in one other Communication mode. The other Page is interested on Rank explanations and on Territory messages. And the would have the Senior physician actually already on it See can, on this strange small Theatre scene, that the telephoned on his Desk and them itself on one other Table, namely on the Meeting table set shall. And then listens he at some point times on, would have he Yes not make must, has he knew, that it a more agreed Date was. No, he makes so a small Theatre play and runs then through the Room towards to this Table and sets itself then towards and as next pushes he the School a little back and flattens itself there pure. The are Government messages.
[17:19]The means, I wants, that you my Precinct recognise. The second Level, the you one huge Role plays, is one Level, the he not pronounces, the itself then in the Workshop with me emphasised has, because these Senior physician is one extreme successful Senior physician. Once on this Position, I would like, that you the recognise, the is my Precinct. What would the memorise and would he the honour, that the recognised becomes? Or is the also something, where one itself now helpless endeavour can, but one creates it not, so to speak there Consonance to produce?
[17:56]
Rank and territory
[17:52]So first times is the Rule, a Precinct begins on the Threshold. The means, when I the Office from someone other enter, enter I a foreign Precinct. Should me clear be, for this Enter this foreign Precinct need I the Permission of the owner of the hunting ground. The means, Door open, go in and itself then somewhere sit down, is none Territory recognition. Different would be it, when I knock and wait, if the Door at all to is, because in some Contexts stands them Yes on, Go we times thereof from, that the Door stands up, then knock I on best on Door frame and question, although the Date agreed was.
[18:30]Question me, goes’s now? Or fits’s now for You? Or somehow something like that. The means for one Verticals not simple only, there is someone polite, but the means for the, OK, there understood someone, that the not be Precinct is and that he at Permission ask must. And the Date and the Agreement, one meets itself in the Office, changes on it even nothing? Changes even nothing on it. Then come I so pure, after me the Territory owner the Permission given has, then come I pure, then will I probably again one Commentary mine Entering get. The other Page becomes either say, Yes clear, come pure, set you but or perhaps says them even, set you on best here. The would be the positive Comment or them would one negative Comment say. To the Example, wait still one Moment or now goes’s not.
[19:20]Or, comes also before, you can quiet stand remain, the becomes now whole briefly. Go we times thereof from, the Territory question is clarified. Only the Indicator for someone Horizontals, that there Precinct one Role plays, are mostly such small Territory actions, the one See could, when one on it pays attention. So, now is the Background the whole thing, and the have I first figured out in the Survey the Client. The Background is, the is one ambitious Senior physician, Medical whole outstanding trained, with one whole great Record about their operative Successes. In the Reason is them a more medical Star on this Clinic. Whilst the Boss not especially good is as Physician. Is stop the Chief. But like comes that?
[20:01]Yes good, well, the happens ongoing. The mine I so to speak, the seems Meaning to have, that one so acts also. When one says, the was not at some point earlier times a Star and lives stop still random in this Executive office, but perhaps gives it one Context between both things. Yes, not absolutely. So in this Case gave it the Context. It has it only still times clearer made. Why? Because a superior Boss, a more vertical Supervisor or one vertical Supervisor, the professional also still Weak is, the feels itself Yes the whole Time as one Kind Impostor, the Fear have must, unmasked to become. Now comes this High flyer and provides in the next Meeting again so one stupid Question. Then memorise Unfortunately already again all, the Boss has it not on it. The Boss checks itself. And these poor horizontal High flyer thinks, I wars still more Recognition from the Boss, when I always still more Performance bring. What Unfortunately the opposite Effect has, because the Type itself always more in the Narrow crowded feels.
[21:00]Okay, but what for a Need