INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#201 GddZ – The vertical and horizontal communication system
How communication efforts ignore – and escalate.
In conversation with Dr Peter Modler
Dr Peter ModlerManagement consultant, coach and bestselling author. He has been running his own management consultancy in Freiburg im Breisgau since 1998, specialising in company restructuring, coaching and management development.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Chapter
0:04 – Welcome to the podcast
1:36 – About communication systems
6:38 – From academics and practitioners
11:56 – Communication patterns in everyday life
17:56 – Rank and territory
23:43 – The power of rank recognition
33:30 – The bilingualism of managers
35:25 – Understanding political communication
38:46 – Importance of non-verbal communication
42:02 – Escalation levels in the vertical system
44:16 – Preview of the next episode
Summary of content
In this episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", I explore the complex topic of verbal disputes and conflicts in the context of different communication systems with Dr Peter Modler. Our conversation aims to develop a develop a better understanding of the dynamics between horizontal and vertical communication patterns and how these patterns can often lead to misunderstandings and escalations.
Dr Modler brings an interesting perspective based on his diverse experience. Having come from a career in the trades and academia, he has developed a deep understanding of the different communication styles that emerge in different social and professional contexts. We discuss how, as an academic on the building site, he learnt that the linguistic patterns and forms of communication on site are completely different to what he was familiar with from the academic world. Here it becomes clear that the different approaches to communication are not necessarily negative, but rather reflect different needs and expectations.
A central topic of our discussion is the concept of rank and territory in communication systems. Dr Modler explains that vertical communicators primarily strive for rank clarification, while horizontal communicators place more value on affiliation and content. This often leads to misunderstandings when, for example, a senior doctor tries to communicate productively in a meeting while her superior signals that the hierarchy is more important to him than the actual content of the conversation. Using illustrative examples from his everyday professional life, it becomes clear how essential an understanding of these dynamic effects is for successful communication.
In the course of the episode, we work out how important it is as a manager to Ability to communicate "bilingually" that makes it possible to navigate between horizontal and vertical patterns. It describes the contradictions that arise when different systems collide. It becomes clear that effective communication requires not only knowledge of the other side, but also an attitude of respect and a genuine interest in understanding the perspectives of the other.
We also shed light on how personal and social polarisation arises in communication and how these elements can lead to inefficient meetings and poor team dynamics in the corporate context. Dr Modler notes that the key to overcoming these challenges often lies in stepping out of your own bubble and actively seeking dialogue with different communication patterns rather than judging or ignoring them.
Finally, we talk about how each of us can benefit from a more conscious examination of our own communication patterns and a willingness to understand those of others. This episode offers not only valuable insights for leaders and communicators, but also practical suggestions for how we can speak more constructively with each other in our daily lives.
Origins Deborah Tannen:
Dr Peter Modler's journalistic work is largely based on the research of Professor Deborah Tannen from the USA. Deborah Tannen is a renowned American sociolinguist and bestselling author who has intensively analysed communication patterns between men and women. Her most important works include
- You just can't understand me: Why men and women talk past each other (1990): This book examines the different communication styles of men and women and how these can lead to misunderstandings. It was on the New York Times bestseller list for almost four years and has been translated into 30 languages. WIKIPEDIA
- I didn‘t say that! Communication problems in everyday life (1986): Tannen analyses here how different conversational styles can influence relationships and lead to misunderstandings.
- Job talk. How women and men talk to each other in the workplace (1994): In this work, she sheds light on communication dynamics in the workplace and how gender differences influence interaction.
- Let's argue properly. The creative handling of useful contradictions (1998): Tannen discusses the constructive handling of conflicts and how different dispute cultures can lead to better results.
In addition to these popular science books, Tannen has written numerous academic publications, including „Conversational Style: Analysing Talk Among Friends“ (1984) and „Talking Voices: Repetition, Dialogue, and Imagery in Conversational Discourse“ (1989). DEBORAH TANNEN
Her work has made a significant contribution to deepening our understanding of gender-specific communication styles and emphasising the importance of language in interpersonal relationships.
Complete transcription:
[0:00]One Manager, the their Job really good makes, the should from mine View doubtful be.
[0:04]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:05]And although no matter, which Home system to have. Whether it someone is, the horizontal communicates or whether it someone is, the Vertical communicated. Cordially welcome to the Podcast Acute through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence.
[0:25]In the today Consequence want we us with verbal Disputes employ. So in the Reason taken that, what we one Conflict name. And then a Communication concept us to Gems lead, the my today's Podcast guest for the German-speaking World formulated has. In Leaning on a already something older Communication concept from America. But the whole interesting Insights receives, Why? Sometimes the Persons one communication system so completely perish in the Debate against the Persons, the the other Communication system utilise. And before we on it Content enter, welcome I first here in the Podcast studio Dr. Peter Modler. Hello. Hello Mr Weigel. You have in the last years itself with this Concept of the vertical and horizontal communication system dealt with, You have in addition several Books written, special Trainings, also especially for Women. And it is not absolutely the Origin Your Activity. You come actually from whole other areas.
[1:33]And therefore first times a pair Words to You. How are You in addition come? And what is for You the Fascinating on it, that You itself with this Topic of the horizontal, vertical communication system and so that with Conflict escalation keep busy?
[1:48]Well, I have in mine own Professional life very different group-specific Communication properties got to know. I have one While on the Building worked, I have one structural engineering Education as Carpenter. The means, I have as Academics, I had namely before already studied, I came as Academics on the Construction sites. I was 25, I was the academic Argumentation and Polite slang used to, came then on the Construction sites and had to remember, that the People on this Construction sites in one completely others, me total foreign Wise communicate. What me on Beginning very irritated has, until I then at some point times understood have, that there hardly something detrimental meant is, only the Sample the Communication are even completely different. So You realised, that You it not personally take must, when You there something rough approached were?
[2:42]Whole exactly. I white today yet, I had to Trial work, at me at all one Apprenticeship earn to must, so two Weeks free of charge on the Roof. And there white I yet, on first working day, as I there started have, all found it a little funny, that a Student with 25 now there one Apprenticeship wants. On first Day, as I then there a Tool to the other got have, have I me for each Tool thanks. So one Saw got, Thank you. One Pliers got, Thank you. One Spanner got, Thank you. Until me the Polisher said has, still a Thank you. And I hau you so on the Fresse, that it you passes. At the latest there was me clear. I come from the Ore Mountains, I have straight some Flashbacks.
[3:24]And You have it not personally taken? So You have itself then not excused and said, Thank you for the Note.
[3:32]Well, so in any case was it irritating for one Academics. With the Time have I then simple understood, that the Pattern, the linguistic Pattern, the in this Context applied become, even simple completely other linguistic Sample are, but even nothing so that to do have, that me there someone ready make wants. But the were even Pattern. And when I me on these Sample embedded have, there could I there very good live. So I have with the Colleagues a whole outstanding Ratio had. It gives there Yes on the Building then, before all when them on the Roof work, one Quantity Situations. Since hangs her Survival thereof from, that them other People blind trust. The was also like this. So the Loyalty and the Solidarity was very large, but with perfect other communicative Tools. After I then on the Building worked have, have I mine Promotion ready made. Am then as Career changer Managing Director from one large Publishing house become. The is now everything already again 30 years, perhaps even 40. Perhaps are Yes some Academics also below listen. What have You a doctorate? I have in more catholic Theology doctorate, but never active as Theologian worked. Whereby I for the Study itself until today grateful am, because these humanities Studies one in the Rule, before all, when one then in Management positions works.
[4:51]One whole enormous Horizon open, the You with one Narrow-gauge studies, I hope, the Business economist forgive me the now, when You with one Business studies in one Company management go, then is the even a bigger Difference, because You from from the outset in Profit and Statements of loss think, or in Business management Key figures. Whilst You as Humanities scholar come in, must You itself the although acquire, But them think anyway much more long-term. So a Year means for one Humanities scholar what other as for one Business economist. In this respect would I times the bold Thesis by the way mention, Humanities scholar in Management positions can lighter strategic think. I was there Relative successful, the Company then complete restructure must. And because the itself got around has, like Successful I so that was, gave it then already the first Counselling requests other Companies. And at some point were the so a lot, that I then complete changed am.
[5:46]Counselling requests with regard to Your Knowledge of business administration at the Restructure from Companies or so to speak of the Handling with so one Change within one Company, so one Change? It went actually at the Restructuring. So I have the Company restructured successful. After itself the got around had, came other Companies and wanted also something like that have. The Restructuring was therefore successful, because the in the Contrast to the Status before itself whole consistent to Markets aligned has. So Market analyses made and then the Company on these Markets towards structured. And exactly the wanted then one Company to the other outside mine then current Employer also have. And so at some point were the Enquiries so a lot, that I then mine own Management Consultancy established have. It is also already again many years here. So also the Market aligned. The have I before some years not more made, the Refurbishments.
[6:38]
From academics and practitioners
[6:39]But have me completely concentrated on the Accompaniment from Executives in Crisis situations.
[6:45]And so are then also mine Books was created. And with one Topic, the itself through the Books through, so also when them thematic itself so to speak different Target groups to dedicate, Moderators, Women, sometimes also political Discussants or at least Persons, the in verbal Disputes act and now not there in the Dialogue advised want, but really in the Discussion remain, political Debates or also in Meetings, draws itself this Communication system through, the You so with vertical, horizontal Communication system describe or also title. Before we there deeper get in, still so the Point, You have Yes so different Disciplines in the Academics shown and Your Origin or at least temporary Working on the Construction, on the Roof, the are for You, when I so say may, not various Disciplines simple only, but You make one clear Cut between Academics and Non-academics.
[7:41]Yes, so clear would I it perhaps not make. It gives Yes now also times one Series from academics, the not Academic socialised been are. The Supermarket cashier, the itself in their Leisure time training, Secondary school leaving certificate makes, then on the second Educational pathway the A-levels and then at some point studied, the is Yes there also at some point Academic, has but one completely other Background as someone, the from one Academic family comes and none Hunch has, like it in the Supermarket on the Cash desk is approaching. So one must the one communication system, what one with Security not in the University learns, the must one experienced have and itself therein Moves have, at it understand to can?
[8:19]So I believe even not times, that one the everything itself experienced have must, but what one learn can and what I also try in mine Workshops to pass on, I should one Alertness and one unprejudiced Openness in favour have and not therefore something down, because it not in mine Sample fits. So when I it hide, then aperture I simple Communication content from, the Consequences have becomes. In one mine Books with Ignoramuses speak, there means Yes the Subtitle, Who only argued, loses. The is so a Classics. So there meet two Pages on top of each other. The one Page brings in fastest Diction a Argument to the other and holds these Kind the Communication for naturally and self-explanatory, while on the other Page large Breaks are created. And then whole simple Sentence constructions used become, so Argument, Argument, Argument and on the other Page says then someone, nope, stupid Mouse and then says he, is but Rubbish.
[9:23]Somehow like this, yes, and like this. And then, what means the then for the Page, the there used to is, that there argumentative proceeded becomes, thinks itself then, yes, the is stop a little limited or the is stop daft, the is stop ignorant.
[9:34]Instead of to perceive, that that, what these other Page makes, also Communication is, only stop none fast argumentative Chain of reasoning, the these Academic educated Page for decades trained has. Therefore is it none bad Communication, it is one other. The watch we us more accurate to, because as this Book written was, was somehow clear, what about it there went. It was so in the Time of the Revenue from Donald Trump. Man has desperate tries to understand, what there happens. Man has itself funny above made, like he in Debates looks, like he discussed and nevertheless seemed it like this, that he Points made has. And the was so a little the Emergence. It was somehow clear, who is the Ignorant or who are the Ignorant people?
[10:23]Now have I Yes the Impression also, that them, when we the hide would, says I now times, the Academics, Click, also the Politicians, the largely Academic formed are, then are the Yes also Ignorant people. So Ignoramuses have we somehow on both Pages, so to speak the comprehensive Thomas. But it seems Differences to give in the Ignore. When You allow, I would times a Example tell, that one before a pair months encounters is. Because we can here much about Trump talk. Sure, the draws ours Attention enormous on itself, but in Reality goes it Yes not at Trump. So it gives one Quantity this Trump figures, naturally also in German Companies and The company and By the way also in Universities. The hot stop different, behaviour itself but similar. The Scene, the I tell, forms in one Clinic, high respected Clinic.
[11:09]And once in the week meets itself the Head of clinic with the Senior physician to the Jurfix. These Senior physician comes in be Office pure with one long List from Topics, the them with him discuss wants or where them his Decision needs. This Head of clinic has never something on the Table lie, when the comes in. It is always a firmer Date. It is always 15 Clock, so it is not surprising for him, but when the then comes in, stands he still on his Desk and on the phone. Or he catches even on to phone, when them comes in. Well, good, so a little stupid. Then wags he there so with his Hand, shall itself sit down. Then sets itself the Mrs, what probably the first Error was, but them sets itself and then comfortable itself the Boss also on the Table to come,
[11:56]
Communication patterns in everyday life
[11:51]sets itself in addition, etches itself in his Armchair pure and says only and. And then catches the well-behaved to, accordingly their List of questions or List of topics to report. What is now in one week happened? Which Problems are emerged? What needs them for Decisions in the middle? You has the whole Time the Feeling, he listens her not right to. You thematised it but not. You finds it also to shameful, the to thematise. At some point fetches this Type one Tacker from the Desk, sets itself there, works the Tacker on, draws one Tacker needle out, while them continues and catches to, itself with this bent up Tacker needle the Fingernails clean to make. The finds them super embarrassing. Embarrassing?
[12:33]But them finds be Behaviour, them is in the reason, ashamed them itself foreign for this ridiculous Act from dem. But them ignored it and remains on their List of topics. He says always only, while he itself the Fingernails clean makes, always only the hmm, hmm, hmm.
[12:48]And the poor Mrs puzzles, what them already again wrong made has. Yes, and the goes even for weeks like this. So the came with in one Workshop, has these Scene tells, one this many Scenes, the one then there so listens, what in Companies communicative expires, the one in the Reason the Shoe move out before Stranger shaming.
[13:06]But the Typical for someone from their System, the is someone, the from the horizontal System comes, this Senior physician, the Typical is, that one in so one Situation in one such Helplessness device, that one the then prefer ignored, continues with the own System, also when it at all nothing benefits. And in the Case has it also even nothing utilised. So the Hour was over, the Boss terminated the Conversation and says, yes, Hour over, Thank you. You has practical nothing had of which. He has her also never listened to. Then goes them out and goes and has already Fear before the next week, where the Whole again expire becomes. Since meet these two Systems, the You addressed have, on one whole lousy Wise on top of each other. Namely these horizontal People, their System through two Axles defined becomes. The one Axle is the Axle the Affiliation. The other Axle is the Axle the Contents. The means, that this System to the Example on one Discussion from the first Second in the Content mode itself is located. The other System has but not these both Axles. The other System, the complementary System, the so-called vertical System, follows the Axles Rank and Precinct. Hear itself a little archaic on and natural can one itself as Academics immediately ask, OK, when there Rank and Precinct stands, where are because there the Contents?
[14:33]Exactly, the Underpinning sense. The Senior physician, the Boss should so at some point times also Contents planned have. Yes, it is in any case first already times clear, when there the one System with Messages of belonging and Content readiness goes in in the Confrontation, the other System but with one Rank and Need for territory, then is actually predictable, that without Interpreter become we a Problem get. The Interpretation would be completely in the Crazy leading, when I now start would, well, them belongs to stop still not to the Group from Female bosses. And the makes he her clearly. So Affiliation is, so that them not belongs to it, is not the Message from his vertical System. Well, I would it times so say, these both Systems, when the in this Room come in, the have other Needs and the behaviour itself also different.
[15:26]The Mrs goes thereof from, is actually no matter, whether it now one Mrs or a Man is, it gives also horizontal communicating Men. These Mrs in any case goes pure and thinks itself, we have Yes now ours Meeting date, so have I me prepared, so talk we now about Contents. I come pure and am zap in the Content mode. And I will checked on the Contents, I must now good be. And I am also ready, him from the first Second, when I the Threshold to this Room exceed, give I the Affiliation mark. So I smile, I Greetings friendly, I keep me not. Ah, there is Affiliation inside. The is Affiliation, because the make Horizontal. Comes not to late. Man comes not to late. Groundless in one Tree smile in with louder foreign People, the make Horizontal. Vertical make the not. The can also smile, the smile but then, when them it appropriate find.
[16:16]When them a little to below smile can. The would be then again one Variant. Comes the so with their Affiliation mark, with their Content readiness pure and thinks, the other Page is also so like I and has the same Sample like I and expected so from the other Page also Affiliation symbol and also a content Enter on the Questions. The other Page on their part located itself in one other System and in one other Communication mode. The other Page is interested on Rank explanations and on Territory messages. And the would have the Senior physician actually already on it See can, on this strange small Theatre scene, that the telephoned on his Desk and them itself on one other Table, namely on the Meeting table set shall. And then listens he at some point times on, would have he Yes not make must, has he knew, that it a more agreed Date was. No, he makes so a small Theatre play and runs then through the Room towards to this Table and sets itself then towards and as next pushes he the School a little back and flattens itself there pure. The are Government messages.
[17:19]The means, I wants, that you my Precinct recognise. The second Level, the you one huge Role plays, is one Level, the he not pronounces, the itself then in the Workshop with me emphasised has, because these Senior physician is one extreme successful Senior physician. Once on this Position, I would like, that you the recognise, the is my Precinct. What would the memorise and would he the honour, that the recognised becomes? Or is the also something, where one itself now helpless endeavour can, but one creates it not, so to speak there Consonance to produce?
[17:56]
Rank and territory
[17:52]So first times is the Rule, a Precinct begins on the Threshold. The means, when I the Office from someone other enter, enter I a foreign Precinct. Should me clear be, for this Enter this foreign Precinct need I the Permission of the owner of the hunting ground. The means, Door open, go in and itself then somewhere sit down, is none Territory recognition. Different would be it, when I knock and wait, if the Door at all to is, because in some Contexts stands them Yes on, Go we times thereof from, that the Door stands up, then knock I on best on Door frame and question, although the Date agreed was.
[18:30]Question me, goes’s now? Or fits’s now for You? Or somehow something like that. The means for one Verticals not simple only, there is someone polite, but the means for the, OK, there understood someone, that the not be Precinct is and that he at Permission ask must. And the Date and the Agreement, one meets itself in the Office, changes on it even nothing? Changes even nothing on it. Then come I so pure, after me the Territory owner the Permission given has, then come I pure, then will I probably again one Commentary mine Entering get. The other Page becomes either say, Yes clear, come pure, set you but or perhaps says them even, set you on best here. The would be the positive Comment or them would one negative Comment say. To the Example, wait still one Moment or now goes’s not.
[19:20]Or, comes also before, you can quiet stand remain, the becomes now whole briefly. Go we times thereof from, the Territory question is clarified. Only the Indicator for someone Horizontals, that there Precinct one Role plays, are mostly such small Territory actions, the one See could, when one on it pays attention. So, now is the Background the whole thing, and the have I first figured out in the Survey the Client. The Background is, the is one ambitious Senior physician, Medical whole outstanding trained, with one whole great Record about their operative Successes. In the Reason is them a more medical Star on this Clinic. Whilst the Boss not especially good is as Physician. Is stop the Chief. But like comes that?
[20:01]Yes good, well, the happens ongoing. The mine I so to speak, the seems Meaning to have, that one so acts also. When one says, the was not at some point earlier times a Star and lives stop still random in this Executive office, but perhaps gives it one Context between both things. Yes, not absolutely. So in this Case gave it the Context. It has it only still times clearer made. Why? Because a superior Boss, a more vertical Supervisor or one vertical Supervisor, the professional also still Weak is, the feels itself Yes the whole Time as one Kind Impostor, the Fear have must, unmasked to become. Now comes this High flyer and provides in the next Meeting again so one stupid Question. Then memorise Unfortunately already again all, the Boss has it not on it. The Boss checks itself. And these poor horizontal High flyer thinks, I wars still more Recognition from the Boss, when I always still more Performance bring. What Unfortunately the opposite Effect has, because the Type itself always more in the Narrow crowded feels.
[21:00]Okay, but what for a Need has then so a more vertical Impostor? On most urgent. What would him calm down? What makes him not more dangerous? Because such Types are in the Rule a more dangerous Opponent in Organisations. Yes, what him probably quite fast disarmed is, when I him the Rank recognise. The means, the Solution this Scene, we play the Yes mostly also experimental through in Workshops, at such Solutions to develop. The Solution in this Scene was, them comes pure, them knocks first times on Door frame, fits it now, then comes them pure, then sets them itself not there, but remains stand, what none Sign from Disrespect is, but on him the Pressure increased, that he be stupid Phone call now times stops, is then also whole fast to End. Then comes he, sets itself there, he may itself as First sit down, the is Yes be Precinct, then offers he one Chair, then sets he itself there, OK.
[22:00]Then says them as first of all, when he them prompts and then says them not immediately what Content, then makes them that, what the Situation for this Verticals at all first unlocks and communicable makes. You says namely according to and clearly, You are the Clinic Director. And then says them, what them wants, namely I need now Your Support for with the Topics, the now come. We have the replayed with one Sparring partner. And the had at all none Problem, the whole Time about these poor Mrs to pass over. But as the this Set says, You are the Clinic Director, there sets he itself on once whole different towards on his Chair. And the Message is not so very, I take You now in the Mandatory, now show You times, that You the also are, but plain and simple, You are it. And it gives none Reason to the Fear, that itself the through mine Presence changes. Hey, you, the this Podcast listens, forget not, him to Rate and one Feedback to give. Many Thanks to and now goes’s continue.
[23:07]It gives sometimes with especially successful, horizontal Communicators and intellectual superior actors opposite so one vertical Boss one clear Escapement, the the Rank to recognise. So I white but, the is a Twat, the has it not on it and now shall I the say, You are the Chief. Why gives it these Inhibition? The gives it namely with Verticals at all not. The gives it therefore, because in the horizontal System one Rank recognition always linked thought becomes with one content Assessment. So when I you say, you are the Boss, says I actually, you are a good Chief.
[23:43]
The power of rank recognition
[23:44]The is in the vertical System at all not like this, because in the vertical System becomes so one Rank recognition as pure more formal Act understood. So with Important and with Contents. The Contents in the Recognition is so to speak significant. So it is sufficient the formal Recognition. The Contents plays actually none Role. So when I someone say, from the I white, he is a Twat, is but Unfortunately my Supervisor. When I the completely unironic recognise, You are the Supervisor. You are the Boss. You are the Managing Director.
[24:15]Then works it like the Sign before the Bracket in one mathematical Term. So I have there so one Term A plus B plus C, front one Bracket, back one Bracket. When I now before this Bracket a Minus have, then changed itself in this Bracket everything. When I before the Bracket a Plus have, changed itself nothing. The is the key to the Bracket content. The Sign before the Bracket, the is for Vertical in the Rule the Rank clarification. And the Special is in the vertical System, one Rank recognition is never connected with one content Qualification. The is pure formal. I repeat with this Rank recognition only, what on the Business card from the stands or what on the Doorplate stands or in the Organisation chart. He is stop the Head of clinic. So says me, You are the Clinic Director, although I white, Medical are you one Zero. No matter, I recognise you this Rank to. I thematise the also not, on even none Case, that he Medical one Zero is, but I close the Situation on, by I him this Rank recognise. By the way completely unironic. When I it ironic do, is everything lost. I recognise him this Rank to. When necessary, when I the Feeling have, that he me not perceives, can I also still mine Rank in addition place. You is in the Clinic, Director. Break.
[25:29]I am the Senior physician. And then can I Content become. And the Probability, that he me then listens, is almost 100 per cent. Turning we the Scene times a pair years to front. Senior physician or Chief Physician is in the Retirement. The Doctor is now the Boss. It comes a young Assistant doctor in addition, the although also studied is, but but also so in the vertical Communication system itself at home feels. So that so to speak that, what You under Rank and Precinct name, now not hasty in Organisation and Hierarchy Translated becomes, but the has what with the individual People to do. When the itself now so behaves and probably not knocks, before he goes in, but simple in the Door stands, what means the so to speak, Rank on Recognition to communicate, when the one Person in the Organisation under one stands? Is the then Important or is the then something, what so to speak from alone clarified is, the white, where he belongs? Mr Weigl, it is good, that we the address. The is namely not the Case. It is By the way also with Equal status not the Case. These Ranking questions in the Ratio vertical-horizontal, the are not only relevant, when it a Gradient to below gives. The are just as relevant, when it a Gradient to top gives. Or them are even relevant, when it even none Gradient gives.
[26:47]Because clarified become must it for Vertical. So or like this. We have it so not with Professional questions to do. Am I the better Doctor? Am I the better A lawyer? What have I for one Grade behind the Comma? and Organisation, whether I now like much Person I lead and like much Salary I get and which Area of responsibility I wear, but we have it what so that to do, what People bring along in the Communication.
[27:10]Yes, it goes there simple at different Needs. So one can it perhaps so say, the vertical System has a Need to one Map. The would like one Orientation have. The want know, where is North. And the make them about these Rank and Attempts to clarify territory. When these Phase finalised is, the goes Yes not infinite long, when these Phase finalised is, can the super Content become. Ah, OK.
[27:37]Since can the loyal and super constructive become. When but these first Phase the Rank and Territory clarification not made becomes, then wars I the Ticket not, with the I in the Underground come. I come not through Turnstile. I come in the Meeting pure, full on the Contents prepared. And the expected I also, that there equal so talked becomes. And then make there any other People, the care itself still at whole other Topics. The regulate at the Football, the run through the Room and strum with the Glasses and the Bottles on the Table rum. The stand much to long there. Actually wants the Meeting Yes start. Something make the yes. And Why hold the the now so up? Because from their View the Admission ticket still not purchased been is. Namely one Rank and Territory clarification. Because first when the solved is, then can this System Content become. These Start-up phase needs the horizontal System not. Since likes I so to speak Your Experience since the 80s or like this, because You simple already long these Industry witnessed have, the under the Range from Communication training and like can we better communicate, there has itself Yes much Effort given, but me seems, The is something, what perhaps so far or long Time so is, the have we overcome or the have we there left, where we come from, but the plays then none Role more.
[29:02]Many have Yes also one Life path from the Small town in the University town and have so to speak the Things there left behind, from those one also say could.
[29:11]It is simple the Courtesy, the itself belongs, the Precinct of the other recognise and then knocks one stop first on the Door, before one entry. How comes it, that the in the Communication science practical unnoticed remained, when I now times the a little overdraw allowed? Yes, Mr Weigl, You have already right. So my Impression is, that many Communication training in Companies and Organisations actually Introductions in horizontal Communicate are, but the vertical Page devalued becomes or complete faded out becomes, often also from Helplessness, because one horizontal Seminar leader or Seminar leader, the the horizontal Tools on suspected horizontal Participants and Participants passes on, in the Rule also not right white, what I now with vertical Malfunctions make shall. I personally find the now not especially complicated and the is probably also one the Reasons for the Success mine Books, that itself many other there not especially drum care. I understand it only honest said not. When I observe, like actually in Companies communicates becomes, the one high vertical Share have, I would times say, natural is it a little depending on the sector. So each closer I on the Mechanical engineering come, all the more more vertical becomes it. With one Car manufacturer or in one Steel melting, Yes there must I me not wonder, when from in the morning until in the evening Vertical communicates becomes. And when I as more horizontal Highly argumentative there come in in one Conflict with one Foreman or with one Chairman of the Management Board, whole no matter.
[30:36]Since can I not thereof go out, that the understands, what I with one horizontal Communication patterns actually would like, because the for its part thereof goes out, the whole World speaks vertical.
[30:47]Other Page the Extreme would be then Systems, in those comprehensive horizontal communicates becomes. The is to the Example the Care and Social context. The find I interesting, because I have now in the Back of the head so to speak to the Example Large law firms had or Auditing companies.
[31:04]Where I also immediately say would, there becomes the Rank immediately clarified and although not about the Grade in the Exam, but about other Licence plate number. The means, the social Organisations, so where one itself strong at Improvement the Communication endeavours. Yes, I am there full with You. I find also, that Communication improved become should. We need the also urgent for all Economic sectors. And the say Yes many, that one the makes. Yes, when the one Half thereby outside before serene becomes, can the not function. Okay, good. The means but so to speak, the, the itself so far at Communication training and Improvements the Communication endeavours have, are susceptible been, only the one Page to train and to emphasise. Because I have rather rare in the Large law firm Seminar offers seen from learners, the I Message know. Mr Weigl, I mine the, like shall I the say, so the Gauges the American Psychology from the 70s years, the then with some Time delay to us come are, in addition would also Ruth Kohn belong to with the I-messages, Bracket on.
[32:13]When one with Ruth Kohn reads, actually in the Original reads, like them the meant has with the I-messages, then is it much more differentiated and professional not so summarised to tick off, like the in the meantime their Epigones spread. We talk Yes from one economic context. And in one Economic context or in one organisational Context, there goes it Yes therefore, that Results achieved become must, often also still under Time pressure.
[32:36]The means, it gives one certain Pressure on results, one certain Pressure to perform. I mine, it is straight first before a pair Days one Investigation came out, Why the Labour productivity in Germany decreases. Perhaps have You it read. The Productivity decreases clearly, although the Number the performed Hours increases. So Why need we always more Time with the Work, while the Productivity sinks? And the Authors the Study come to the Result, the lies on the whole completely superfluous Meetings. The Voting density, the we in the meantime have with all possible Colleagues, so that absolutely also still all in the Boat are, is such high become. Yes, all want again have your say and all must taken away become. That we always weaker Results get, because the lasts natural much to long and we waste much to much Time with it. Whereupon I out would like, Mr Weigl, one Manager, the their Job really good makes,
[33:30]
The bilingualism of managers
[33:28]the should from mine View bilingual be. And although no matter, which Home system them has. Whether the someone is, the horizontal communicates or whether it someone is, the Vertical communicated. But both should in the Location be, also the Inherent laws of the other Systems to know, without it devalue and with Demand to utilise.
[33:48]So when I a more vertical Boss am and I have predominantly horizontal Female employees and Employees, then should I understand, what I make must, at with those to talk. And then can I not each Meeting with one Edge clarification start, because then are the Horizontals on 180, the Find the embarrassing and stone-age and retarded and it demotivated the. The should I know as Vertical. Or vice versa should I know, when I a more horizontal Boss am or one horizontal Boss and I work in so one vertical Context, And I catch each Meeting on with I-messages and we talk now all times about it, like it me goes. Since is with the Verticals the Roller shutter below. The becomes a lousy Meeting become, but the Boss is even itself blame.
[34:28]All in Therapy to send is simple none Solution. In any case not in one vertical Context. Now have we the Yes so to speak quite so as social Observation, that on all Locations described becomes from Polarities. And it becomes also natural on this political Developments fixed, where we it first in the Television and in social Media in America see. Now See we the Things here in Germany, where we the fast somehow the Impression get, the one interest itself for Contents, for the is so to speak from the Climate crisis until to Globalisation issues etc. Content determined and the other seem the to ignore and simple continue to want like so far. And You have the Yes originally so to speak on this Election campaign between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump fixed. I must there still times short on it come back, because we the Impression have or often described becomes, the takes over now the entire Society.
[35:25]
Understanding political communication
[35:25]Would You say, that the to the Piece wide also a Communicating with each other is from this two systems? So would we with this Concept, the Yes originally a American Concept is, I will the again in the Shownotes also link, the Origins, that we so that a Piece wide clearer come and that it not one Polarisation on one Continuum is, so the one Page and the other Page, but that then really two various Communication systems also in the social with each other at Recognition wrestle. I have a little Inhibitions, the large political Explanation from the Sack to get. I am only a Management consultant, the wants, that it mine Clients and Clients better goes with their to the large Part lousy Situations. I am interested on it, that.
[36:12]Communication Productive becomes. My Impression is, also with many political Disputes, the we in Germany have, but not only in Germany. You Find the same Sample in whole Western Europe, in Eastern Europe also. Asia would be a little what other, but these Sample Find we everywhere. The decisive key for the Break up this Sample is the Abandonment the own Bubble, so determine, that I actually used to am, on one Wise to communicate, from the I not Accept may, that them everywhere so understood becomes and that everywhere all just as also join in can. I live in one small Village with 400 inhabitants. I sing so that in the Village choir. Two Places next to me sings one me very love Singer. The is Cashier in the Supermarket. Okay, when I me with the entertain, then is me completely clear, I can now here not mine entire academic Education hang out leave and then permanent with any elaborated political Argumentation chains On the Defences. Because I namely already many Situations with this Mrs experienced have, where we in solidarity were and one deep personal Relationship have were able to.
[37:20]Although their Forms of communication whole other are as mine. So Why should I because now the Communication properties this Supermarket cashier down, only because them not Plato Read has or because them not learnt has, a Argument in the political direct Discourse to the other thoroughly reflected imagine? Why should I the down do? When I what says and then see me, them looks me so a little sceptical on and shakes so a little the Head, then should I not continue talking. Then should I understand, that them now straight with me communicated. And then should I on it enter. The Main error or the Main obstacle also for us in Germany on political Communication is this Insist on the own Bearing. These large Readiness, the other Page so fast moral devalue, when the other Sample used. So when someone Breaks makes, slowly speaks, simple Messages makes and me thereby from the Concept brings, then is the other Page but not simple a Vollhorst. Then should I times understand, as someone, the the Claim has, I wants communicative be, then should I times decode, that the other Page with me straight speaks.
[38:36]Although them hardly talks. So Etiquette has in his famous Book about the Handling
[38:46]
The importance of non-verbal communication
[38:41]with People, Etiquette has this Book then in two Parts shared. The one was the spoken Language and the other was the Sign language.
[38:51]So to the Time from Etiquette was it still completely naturally, that the so-called Sign language, so that thinks he, Move in the Room, Gestures, Facial expression, completely equal rights is, with our verbalised expressed Language. And we have in the meantime somehow us trained off in ours whole academic Training programmes, that it actually also still what other gives as verbal, fast Firing out from many Syllables. I find it so to speak paradox, that we us the trained off have or that one in the Danger comes, the to train, that the Meaning has. Nevertheless becomes always again emphasised, like significant the Non-verbal is. And me seems, the is again a other Aspect, that it not only non-verbal is, but the describe the as Yes really embodied Communicate. So the Move-Talk, the Room edit, had them the times so labelled. I use the Term non-verbal not more. And although simple therefore, because the extreme Juxtapositions claims and thereby a Ideal provided becomes. The Ideal would be then verbal. So verbal is actually that, what really what worth is.
[40:03]But then gives it there also still any funny Phenomena, the are Unfortunately not verbal or non-verbal, but the Scale is the Verbal. The hold I for one Error. The is Yes also interesting, that there Ranking questions again pure itself sneak in the horizontal System. Yes, so therefore talk I not from non-verbal, but from the Move Talk.
[40:23]And Move Talk means, the is really a linguistic Element.
[40:29]It is a whole enormous effective linguistic Element, the in the vertical Context the highest Escalation level in Conflicts corresponds. Because it without each Word happens, from Horizontals in the Rule complete underestimated becomes. So I come in the Room pure, I have mine File folder under the Arm and I am full in the Argumentation mode and now wait I on it, that it goes off. So, now come I there pure, there stand two People, to those go I there, whereupon the one to left goes away.
[41:01]And something in any wide more distant Corner makes. And the other to right. And then begins the Drinks on the Table to sort, as whether the still not sorted would be. And there should I me times about it clear be, what now straight happens. Because there becomes with me spoken. And there wars I namely the Message, we want now here not with you verbal become. Or perhaps even the Message, we ancestor already, like good you prepared are and what for one Position you there represent will. But the is not ours.
[41:30]Or belong you here at all in the Meeting? Or we are much more high-ranking as you, you have here at all nothing to more. So it gives one whole Quantity Possibilities, what so that meant becomes. Only I should understand, that there straight one Communication takes place and not desperate on it wait, when the first verbal Term falls. So Important also, there wants I still times the Circle close also, there goes it even not at the Rejection the Contents, at the now on Beginning wrestled
[42:02]
Escalation levels in the vertical system
[41:58]becomes, but the key to the Together communicate find. The is the Point, Mr Weigel. So it gives in this vertical System, becomes in three Steps escalated. The lowest Level is the so-called High Talk. High Talk is a elaborated, intellectual, justifying Speak, in the much Knowledge, perhaps even Specialised training occurs. And when the other Page also High Talk makes, gives it Yes in the Rule little Problems, there can one itself exchange. The next Escalation level in the Vertical system is the Basic-Talk.
[42:30]Basic-Talk can devastating Consequences have and Basic-Talk is now times actually only Basic. The is everything under ten words, none Foreign words, none Relative clauses. It must also even not factual be. You say something, then says the other Page, understands nobody. Then say You again something, then says the other Page, can You someone other tell. Then say You again a Argument, then says the other Page, nope. I have straight so one List in the Head from the ten Killing arguments from Impostors and like can them on it react in terms of content. I must the only identify, that here straight one Escalation takes place.
[43:10]But Basic Talk is first the second Escalation level. It gives still one above and the can People total broken make, when them not so that Bypass can. And the is even this mentioned Move-Talk. The can monstrous powerful be. And when someone Move-Talk makes, perhaps even connected with one Basic-Talk and on the other Page sits someone, the can only, only in Inverted commas, the can only argue, the can only Content detailed proceed, then becomes these Person in the Second, where the other Page Basic-Talk and Move-Talk is used, then has the little Opportunities. The means, I can also on these Levels go, but not, because the so a great Game is, but because, when I on the same Level answer, then is the other Page also ready, again to go back and Content become. And Mr Mottler, the would I with You with pleasure in one next Consequence again deepen. And indeed, because You a highly interesting Book to the Topic Moderate from Cologne.
[44:16]
Outlook for the next episode
[44:11]Difficult Conversations from this different Communication types also written have. And where the one Role plays, that we on it enter can, straight in the Moderator role also, that the both Communication systems to each other Find and itself not constantly more polarise.
[44:31]Or even together talk past. With pleasure, Mr Weigel, with pleasure. We are namely for today on End ours Conversation arrived. I found it highly interesting, again with You so to speak direct speak to can and the Subtleties the Messages to work out, because I the Impression have, that really.
[44:50]When one in one System itself very to Home feels, so that the other like in one distant Reminder or as even not real perceived becomes, that one simple the Messages actually from the Eyes loses and thinks, the is one Cancellation on a Together. The is it very often not. Since would I also then in the next Conversation perhaps still a pair Examples also noticed, like the itself listens or feels, when these both to each other found have, because one the Admission tickets regular and complete paid has. Yes, with pleasure, Mr Weigel. Mr Modler, I wish You one beautiful Working day with all communication systems, the You so against flutter and happy me on a next Conversation with You. Thank you, Mr Weigel. I happy me also. Until then. Until then. Bye bye. Bye bye. The was my Conversation with Dr. Peter Modler to the horizontal and to the vertical Communication system and like one the right Admission ticket to the right Timing also redeemed. And then should it succeed. We become the deepen in one second Episode.
[45:59]And on it happy I me already. Likewise like I me pleased have, that you and her again here with thereby was. And when you the please has, the Podcast and these Episode, then leaves but a Feedback and one small Valuation on Apple Podcast or Google Business. Recommends the Podcast more and subscribe him, when you the still not done have. Until to the next Paint from mine Page. Come good through the Time. I am Sascha Weige.., yours Host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training.
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