INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#198 – Pitfalls of mediation. The example of peace mediation.
With comments on peace initiatives in the context of the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine
In conversation with Dr Günther Baechler
Dr Günther Baechler, diplomat, OSCE Special Representative and peace mediator: Initially studied art and art history in Basel, then political science, history and international relations at the Free University of Berlin.
- From 1988 to 2000 he headed the Swiss Peace Foundation (swisspeace) in Berne.
- In 2005, he was appointed by the Federal Department of Foreign Affairs to the Mediator in Nepal appointed.
- From 2007 to 2010 he was Special envoy in the Darfur conflict active.
- From 2010 to 2015, he served as Swiss Ambassador to Georgia.
- Since January 2016 he has been OSCE Special Representative for the South Caucasus
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Chapter of the conversation
0:00 – Welcome to the podcast
0:24 – Mediation and its challenges
9:15 – Transformative mediation in an international context
11:58 – Review of the mediation experience
19:22 – The complexity of today's conflict situations
26:09 – Realistic perspectives on mediation
28:27 – Mediation in extreme conflicts
38:03 – The influence of the public on mediation
41:51 – Challenges in the mediation of conflicts
43:25 – Reflection on your own mediation practice
48:52 – Pitfalls and considerations for mediation
Summary of the conversation
Mediation faces a number of challenges in practice. I, Sascha Weigel, have invited the experienced peace mediator and expert Dr Günther Baechler to talk about these complex facets of mediation, particularly in the context of international conflicts. Mr Baechler brings with him a wealth of experience from his long career as a mediator and peacemaker, dating back to the confrontations of the 1990s and thus to the beginnings of mediation. Modern mediation goes back.
In our conversation, we reflect together on the beginnings of modern mediation and the initial euphoria that accompanied the hope of resolving conflicts sustainably through dialogue-based approaches. Mr Baechler describes how he worked in various crisis regions, particularly in Africa, in the early years after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the East-West conflict. The focus at that time was on combining traditional conflict resolution mechanisms with modern mediation approaches. This combination was crucial in developing solutions to complex resource conflicts that arose in various communities, particularly between farmers and nomads.
Over time, however, the image of mediation has changed. Mr Baechler shares his observations on the current challenges facing mediators in today's often polarised and emotionally charged political landscape. In this episode, we discuss the dark side of mediation and the critical reflection on how much pressure there is on conflict parties today to sit at mediation tables while unequal power relations often operate in the background.
A central topic of the discussion is the Question of the extent to which an offer of mediation by third parties can exert pressure, especially in conflicts in which a Clear inequality between perpetrator and victim exists. We shed light on how such offers can not only be perceived as a step towards a solution, but can also be a way of used manipulatively by the stronger party in order to improve their own Improve public image or the weaker party under further pressure to set.
We also discuss the role of the international community in conflicts such as the one between Russia and Ukraine and reflect on the conditions under which mediation can be useful. Mr Baechler warns that the current geopolitical situation and aggressive tactics pursued by various nations often severely limit the possibilities for non-violent conflict resolution. This leads to a sobering reality where mediation may not be the appropriate tool in cases where trench warfare prevails.
The discussion concludes with an urgent reminder to be mindful and a realistic understanding of the possibilities and limitations of mediation. Mr Baechler and I agree that in today's world, mediators should not only focus on the positive elements of their work, but also recognise the reality and complexity of the conflicts in which they are involved. So in this episode, we look at mediation from a differentiated perspective and show how important it is to recognise not only the positive aspects, but also the ethical and practical challenges of this process.
Transcription of the conversation
[0:00]Perhaps am I there today also something sprayed off, but this positive Picture and also the positive Image of man the Mediation, the have I actually already
[0:11]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:10]longer behind me left. Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time, the Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting, a Podcast from Electrolytic capacitors Zehmer. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence.
[0:24]
Mediation and its challenges
[0:24]Today shall it here in the Podcast at Mediation Go and Mediation with his Problems, the the possibly with itself brings. And these would like I as now to Start already times so one possible Falling distance name, the we here also in the Podcast already times addressed had, together with the Colleagues Mark Troy under the Keyword the dark Pages the Mediation. And I have me today one Mediator, one Experts invited, the already long years in most difficult Conflicts mediated has, mediates has, in warlike Disputes or in conflicts, the the threatened to become. Therefore would like I first once Mr Günther Saxon here in the Studio welcome. Hello Mr Bächler. Yes, hello Mr Weidl, good Day. Mr Böcher, You have, when I the so right researched have, one long Life path to the Mediation behind itself. From the Art History and from the Art coming in Basel studied, then but still additional Politics and Historical sciences and international Relationships on the Free University in Berlin. Are we so to speak common Alumni. The was also my historical Study there on Friedrich-Meine-Ger-Institut. You are but one whole Generation Experienced and have in most difficult conflicts.
[1:47]International Conflicts mediated. Perhaps a pair Words from You first so to Yours Value progression as Mediator, and which Background experience so to speak You today bring along. Yes, with pleasure. I am then to Berlin. Am I on the Institute for Peace research and Security policy in Hamburg, on the University Hamburg and have me there still with the East-West conflict deals with.
[2:14]I am from 1989 actually with the Fall of the Wall to Berne drawn and was Manager the new founded Swiss Peacemaking, today Swisspeace, actually a Think Tank, also in the Range Mediation, Conflict resolution, Conflict analysis, Security policy. Our first Programmes at that time, 89, 90, were Conflicts before all in Africa in the Range also from Conflicts over resources, environmental Conflicts and the Question, like we these so to speak Peaceful transform can, which Help we there perform. And we have actually Research, Field research and Mediation combined. Since am I actually so right on the Flavour come, am then Centre the 90s years to Cambridge, USA and have me there in various Programmes to the Mediator train leave and am then afterwards, from Centre the 90s years, so right also in the Mediation entered, also in the Education.
[3:30]And yes, like You said have, I have actually since then in various Regions and Conflict contexts worked. I would say, on the Flavour have arrived. What was the then been, where You said have, thereof wants I more have? Well, the was actually interesting. We have Beginning the 90s years various Conflict constellations in the Horn from Africa had Before all local Conflicts, to the Example between Farmers and Nomads. Since went it at Resources, at Country, at Access to Country. And we have then together with local Mediators, the were to the Part also Elders, from Tribe Elders, have we tried, there Solutions to sketch and to find. And the Whole were then rather traditional Conflict resolution mechanisms, the I very interesting found, also then in the Combination with, says I now, modern Methods the Mediation. And there wanted I even more know, the Whole deepen and also actually these Connection between, one can say, more traditional Arbitrage and more modern Mediation really also operational, but also in the Analysis produces.
[4:51]In the Review seems it me, perhaps also other sometimes like this, that these Wedding, this Emergence the modern Mediation like so a Eureka moment was. Now have we what found, now can we Conflicts different edit and we have a rational Understanding, but also a Cultural understanding, Understanding of tradition, where we the tackle can. Also in the Time, where we thought, that the large End of the East-West conflict also in addition led, that we generally the liberal Moment on the Victory march found. And we can now with Mediation Conflicts, warlike Conflicts actually the History handed over. Was the then for You and Your Colleagues also like this, that You there so to speak the Stone the Whites found had or were Yes rather critical People also opposite more traditional Conflict resolution? How was the Mood under Mediator, the then the learnt and then processed have?
[6:00]Yes, I think, it was already one A spirit of optimism to the End of the East-West conflict. And this Block confrontation had one suddenly so like the Fog away, straight in the Regions with so-called Proxy wars and has seen, where the Conflicts lie and where also Methods the local Conflict resolution applied become. So in this respect met ours Enthusiasm for the Mediation quite on a Field, what actually already traditional available was, what one but so even not in the View had. And there gave it quite interesting Parallels, interesting Approaches.
[6:43]A more American Mediator, Author John Paul Lederach, has Yes in addition very much written under the Title Conflict transformation. So actually transformative, long ongoing Processes, at the Complexity to become. So one has really, Since comes something in Gear and it gave then also very many numerous Initiatives. We have then to the Example also in the 90s years a Umbrella organisation Mediation in the Switzerland founded. Since were all Mediation areas in the process, also the international Peace mediation. The was actually rather one Exception. In this respect had we really from the Family mediation until to the international Peace mediation all on board. Also then trilingual, German-speaking Switzerland, Italian Switzerland, French Switzerland.
[7:42]In this respect was the already something New and has very much causes in the Interior, like then but also in the Exterior and Peace policy. Perhaps still a Set in addition. We have then also 1990, 1993 a Law on the Path brought, a swiss Law to the Promotion the Peace and Human rights policy from Part the Swiss Reason of state. And on the Basis this Law had we also one Framework loan in the Foreign policy and one special Department, the itself before all at Peacebuilding and Mediation Worldwide endeavours has. So in this respect very much and today sees one the natural something more critical, natural also in the Review, but before all, You have the mentioned, perhaps liberal Methods. It gave Yes also in the Research, in the Peace research, this Paradigm, democratic peace.
[8:42]So even Democracies grab itself not each other to, lead not War against each other, in this respect is a Path the Democratisation also a Peace path and there Helps the Mediation as dialogical Structure very with. Since are we today something sobered. Leave You us still a little in the good old Time yet, because I the interesting find. But we come there, the is natural also the Motto and the Topic today.
[9:15]
Transformative mediation in an international context
[9:11]But I would the Point, because the is me also new, there am I really not so versed inside. The transformative Element, what You with the Mr Latterick addressed had, the was related also on international and Peace mediation.
[9:25]Today is it me before all Things known as transformative Mediation in the interpersonal Range with Bush and Folger, the American Mediators. Is the the same, Idea from Transformation or simple only the same Names used? So I think, the Idea is similar. Also here goes it ultimately at the Transformation from Relationships between Parties, not Individuals, but Groups, collective Parties. But the Transformation, we have always said, from Conflict issues, from Conflict relationships, from Conflict dynamics. The stands actually on and the conditional even longer Processes. And in this respect comparable, with John Paul Leather axle was it related before all on, what he said has, ethnopolitical Conflicts in the Interior from States.
[10:24]We were Yes 1989 and afterwards confronted with very much domestic and not more with intergovernmental conflicts. Yes, broken open Conflicts. Exactly, exactly. Since came the Mediation pure. And to the Example the Berghof Foundation in Berlin for Conflict transformation, the it actually already since mine Time on Otto's U Institute gives, the has the Term ins Centre their approach placed. I am there today still in one Board in the Berghof Foundation. Foundation and Transformation is a more central Term. Partially came the Discussion then also pure to the Topic systemic Approaches. Man has the then a Piece wide connected. Often was the Differences even not so large. So Transformation sets actually per se already on systemic Approaches.
[11:22]And in this respect, yes, must I say, is the in the international Peace mediation related on domestic Conflicts quite to one supporting Model become. With intergovernmental Conflicts sees it again something different from, would I say. Also the German Politics, Foreign policy has long Time then in the Connection, also since the noughties, the to the decisive Guiding star made and in Mediation a Instrument seen,
[11:58]
Review of the mediation experience
[11:54]the not only especially Eligible is, but also preferable. Now can we so one small Jump make to today and You said already like this, the would something more sobering today seen become, at least also in the Review. Perhaps first times to You, like watch You there on it back, so when one so to speak there with much Commitment and Idealism what built up has, the so also unchallenged good is, good Intentions has and now on Conflict situations meets, where man… Perhaps two-, three times superior should, whether one with his good Intentions the simple so then also demands. Button me cautious ran, because I not exactly white, in which Field I so that advance.
[12:38]No, I understand the Question on itself good. So we were Yes safe euphoric, but not naive in the senses, that we said have, the solved all Problems. It was one Time, before all the 90s years until in the noughties, where the Mediation also international and in the Conflict areas, also domestic to the End of the East-West conflict on large Interest in bumped is. And although also with many Parties to the conflict, both Governments as also oppositional Currents or perhaps even Rebels, revolutionary Movements. So it was even actually before the Background of the End of the Cold War and the global A spirit of optimism, also Democratisation. Many Elections found then Beginning the 90s years instead, also in Africa. 92 was the Election year, all have on the Democracy believed. The means.
[13:42]Man came pure as Mediator and encountered on Benevolence. The Parties wanted the Mediation as Instrument get to know, wanted it use, at their Problems to solve. And these good Intention is perhaps even not times so very in the Centre point. It goes even not so very at the Being good, but at the Being helpful, at sensible Solutions to offer. Also quite Parties, the perhaps not absolutely so on the good Page are or be want.
[14:16]But it went therefore, a efficient Instrument really also fruitful to make. And there helped the Parties, With, I was now straight in Nepal, there has a Television channel from Singapore one Film turned about the Peace process before 20 years under the Title The Peacemakers, the is on YouTube, can one the see. And them have me and three, four other Mediators interviewed, like the was before 20 years. And I must say, the was really a Highlight, because in Nepal then all Parties, the King, the Parties, the Military, the Maoist Rebels, All wanted one fast Peace process mediated, informal, through the international Community, at really one stable Government to form. The was still so to speak a Foothills this Euphoria, this Time.
[15:17]Where we also on local Level even with smaller Parties, even Farmers against Nomads to the Example in the Sahel, quite Success had. In the By the way also in the Context the Development co-operation, the Yes then just as positive set up was. So we had the also quite in the so to speak connected Development co-operation and Conflict prevention or Mediation. The was one new Department also in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
[15:50]The means, the was one Situation, where all Parties, also when them.
[15:55]Against each other placed were or itself experienced have also, on the Mediation interested were and wanted, that one Solution found becomes. So Passive formulated in the Senses from the international Community Helps us in the process. Exactly. And it gave Yes very many Processes in the Background. So a better known Process was to the Example from Herb Kelman in Cambridge initiated.
[16:24]Interactive Problem-solving processes, so to speak Track tour, like one said has, so not on highest governmental Level, to the Close East with Palestinian Representatives or Individuals and Israeli Individuals. The went about years, the is then in the Oslo Process resulted, the also so to speak in the Background very Confidential and at home Israel and Palestinians brought together has. The Multitrack approach was there in the Development. And the has one even not so to the Knowledge taken in the Public. The were very confidential Processes. But the has works, until actually then the on the higher Level, in the Madrid process or then to Camp David come is, where it then on Conclusion again failed is, on highest Position. But one has actually on this Level very much done and prepared. Example, I had together with the Swiss Development co-operation one Process about three years to the Conflicts on Blue Nile. Blue Nile, the is before all Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt. And the was Yes for a while one dangerous Situation, also very warlike.
[17:42]In this respect have we then with Representatives from the three Countries really one Process on track, at these Conflict dynamics to change. On Beginning was the a Conflict at Water and on Conclusion was it actually a development policy Conflict, the one also with corresponding Instruments solve could. So such Things ran whole good, must one say. And today see I rather less in these Direction. But also the World situation has itself change. I can the now only first Compare with Organisations, in those I meditate, where it also different Interests gives, the but natural not whole so interwoven are and independent like in the Layers, the You experienced have. But I wants so to speak the Pitfall, the I there identifies have.
[18:32]With You discuss, whether the even also so perhaps today first is and then still not. But that the Idea, the could we now one Mediation in addition carry out, also the Communicate, I am for one Mediation, that the a Part not only the Conflict dynamics is, but by no means mean must, I give my original Goal on or I am willing to compromise, But I can someone on the Negotiating table get, because he itself the Offer heavy withdraw can. So in the internal Public, when there one Page, for my sake the Works Council says, I beat one Mediation before, then can a other, HR or Management, heavy say, nope, make I not.
[19:15]Because the itself one Refusal one rational Procedure means.
[19:22]
The complexity of today's conflict situations
[19:20]And the becomes so one Kind irrational Action be. Is the something, what You perhaps now increasingly then also observe, that so Offers to the Mediation rather one hidden Danger of escalation with itself brings? Or can we on it trust, that the on each Case a Step in the right Direction is, when someone says, I would with pleasure Mediation do? So I would now say, in the 90s years and in the noughties was the safe a Sign in favour, that the Parties in the Principle one Solution search. Whether them from Beginning on always on Consensus trimmed were, the be remains to be seen, because the Whole was Yes in the Rule also Relative complex. The caught already on with Ceasefire negotiations. We had then in Darfur 14 Ceasefire agreement mediated, together with Chad.
[20:13]The were all not complied with, to the Example. So for always the same Parties. Exactly, exactly. The takes already complex Moulds to. But the Will was in the Reason there and it went also not at hidden Escalation, that one the other Page now about the Table draw wanted.
[20:36]The see I today in various Conflict situations a little different. It is also not more like this, so both the Mediation. It is a Marketing topic maybe, even not times about the Table draw, but it is a Marketing topic, I can a Image. But even today care itself the Parties less at such Image damage or possible Damage. So one Time long was the perhaps like this, that one said has, I must take part, at least good Miene, I must me ready show, but actually have I none Interest.
[21:11]The gave it already also times, I would say, then the Sudanese Region has more or less under international Print, also in the Arabic Room participated, but the wanted natural not absolutely one comprehensive Peace agreement with the Darfur rebels. You has it already served, this comprehensive Peace agreement with the South, what Yes then to one Division led has in one Referendum. But today would I say, also in the Age of the Trumpism, the more radical ones, authoritarian Government, of the Nationalism, Populism, so to speak also chauvinistic Representation of interests from Guided tours, cares one itself actually at a such Image not more. Or maybe, when I the Example take, perhaps is the one Opinion or false Facts also, but when I now the Russian, Ukrainian War take, the russian War of aggression, where whole simplified, I beat once on it and afterwards offer I to, I listen on, when you to the Conditions the Surrender with me negotiate. The now times whole shadowy. Then goes it for me there in first Line at a Image, the I on the social Media present can. I have a Negotiation offer made and the other Page says No.
[22:31]So there is it rather a Image theme, where the Offer to the Negotiation even not so very on the Conflict partner directed is, but on the Public, the I for me Win wants or at least say wants, here are two equal Interests. And that there Mediation as Offer simple one Pitfall is subject to. Hey, you, the this Podcast listens, forget not, him to Rate and one Feedback to give. Many Thanks to and now goes it continue. Yes, whereby from mine View was the Proposal from Putin to Start neither on the Image aligned, but before all the Public Opinion in the West to influence. In the Imich towards or here, it went him therefore, actually one Reversal of debt present and to show, I am Yes actually the Good, I had to the do, but I am natural also to Conversations ready. So here goes it therefore, the Narrative actually to establish and also to change. And the Second was, that Yes natural more serious Analyst, would I say, this Offer also never really serious taken have and until today not.
[23:52]In this respect can one say… Serious taken have or serious meant has? Yes, it has Nobody serious taken. He has it also not serious meant. I think, in favour has one Yes also one Antenna, when something serious meant is and when it really also to Conversations and possible Results leads. I mine, we have straight in the Range Georgia conflict with Russia, We had now soon 70 Rounds in Geneva since 2010 and we are not one Millimetre made progress. Since could I so very many count, because the Whole goes actually Russia only therefore, this Format to be maintained, but if possible none only Step to front to bring. Exactly in the Ukraine would be the not much different. Find I d’accord, also when I there at all not the Insight have, the You there whole up close witnessed have. But nevertheless, and therefore goes it me so to speak also with the Topic, when I the now as Mediator, the not in the Contexts acts and there Mediator am, that we one Antenna develop as Mediator for such Phenomena, the we perhaps even not in the View get would, when we in the Mediation always only the Opportunity see. And we must it but try, because it even also one Pressure exercises. To this Pitfall goes it me yes. So would I Your Assessment See want from the Mediator world, whether we the in the View have sufficient?
[25:21]Perhaps am I there today also something scalded. But this positive Picture and also the positive Image of man the Mediation, the have I actually already longer behind me left. Because in the Mediation, also in the international Peace mediation goes it therefore, with to the Part very hardened Constellations, with Parties, the itself nothing restrict, the at all also not Do-gooders be want.
[25:47]One Solution to find, a Agreement in the Consensus. And when both Pages agree, then is the in the Rule also from the Mediator to accept. How good the then is, is one other Question. Since gives it natural today also legal Hurdles in the international Right.
[26:09]
Realistic perspectives on mediation
[26:05]Man can not more everything sign as Mediator, but but can one there Relative wide go. In this respect are Mediations in the international Range not absolutely connected more, when them them were, with one only positive Image of man or the liberal Point of view. The First, the Second is also, in the international Range belongs to always also a Piece wide Print, political Print, international Pressure to the Setting. And would You say, that we Mediators there also Pressure exercise, when we only the Positive Emphasise and us make available, yes, we would Yes with pleasure Mediation here carry out, so that the Peace comes etc. And that the but also Pressure exercises, to the Example now on…
[26:51]The Ukraine or on others? Absolutely. So there would I now say, it gives natural very different Cases. Man must insane watch out. Each to Context lie the Things again whole different. But now in the Example Ukraine, Russia. The is a very more special Case.
[27:12]Because it one the few Cases the last Decades is, where it one really international Aggression, so one international War against one Neighbouring country led becomes. The is to the one times the Situation and to the second is it even also in the UN law under international law considered, a more illegal War, a War of aggression is to today's UN law, also to the compelling Law prohibited. It gives only the Law on Self-defence. In this respect have we here one Injury, one fundamental Injury of the international law, the is added. And thirdly is it one Kind the Escalation, the we today experience, the created was, already since 2022, the in Direction really also devastating Blows go. The means, we come in a climes, where the Mediation per Definitione perhaps not the best Medium is.
[28:15]Diplomatic expressed. A Friend Friedrich Glasl, the Yes this famous Glasl escalation model developed has with the nine Steps.
[28:27]
Mediation in extreme conflicts
[28:27]He says, Mediation is Yes so on best between Steps, say we now three and six, in one Conflict, so before gives it still other Medium the Self-help, but with seven, eight, nine becomes it then… Already to late.
[28:42]So, now have we, I would say, in the Ukraine, Russia have we already, are we on Level 7 from, at least.
[28:51]And nevertheless demands my prefer Friend Fritz Glasl always again immediately Mediation and Negotiation and Mediation. And there must I say, the is Yes a Contradiction to his own Model. And therefore would be I here cautious. I belong now Unfortunately, must I say, to those, the say, in the Ukraine conflict can I as Mediator in the Moment nothing make. I would also none offer, in which so to speak the Victim the Ukraine under unnecessary Pressure sets. The Point is but the, when the Aggressor some credible Sign send out would, international, like always, one has today all possible Media, credible, a Exclamation mark, that he ready would be, really to negotiate, credible. Then would be Zelensky and the Ukraine the First, the itself on the Table set would, perhaps with Help from international Partners, but after all them would it do. Absolutely. The is whole clear. The means, it missing so far from the Aggressor a credible Sign. In this respect would I now the not undermined, this System as Third party from outside and say, we must now immediately negotiate, sets you on Table does what, the hold I really for dangerous.
[30:19]Some are there perhaps naive, but it is Dangerous and it corresponds to also not the Mediation assignment and Concept, the so to make. Yes, I find, there are important Points inside. So the one is.
[30:32]Sich to make clear, a Offer to the Mediation sets Parties under Pressure and can unjust and denigrating work with one constellation, the so unjust is, so like a Attack and Defence. And I can the again transform so to speak or parallelise on Organisation at the Topic Bullying, when the so a Bullying process is, where really few other push out want and them fight as Person in the Company, where it not at Compromise goes, but really at Displacement and Exclusion is a Offer from Mediation, these conflict-like Situation to edit. Not only one Offence, but one Cancellation on the one Page, the coerced becomes then to say, OK, then must I me so that on the Table set. So one Attack defence situation. Yes, the bullied Person would then probably rather before Court of law go. And international is it Yes ultimately also like this. We have Yes actually one Court case with this contrary to international law Procedure. Unfortunately works the international Jurisdiction not really like this, like we the wanted, also with Sanction options. In this respect fizzled out the but ultimately.
[31:52]Must Yes the Security Council determine, it is one contrary to international law Aggression. We must as Panel, as International legal community try, these Aggression to stop and the Aggressor to the Compulsory to take and to the Accountability to draw. And the has with Mediation first once nothing to do. The means, when one the Instruments here would have, at one such Aggressor really also upset and in the Compulsory to take.
[32:24]Then would need one not so to speak the Victim with the Situation to confront, that it under Circumstances one loss-making Negotiation or Mediation enter would have to be. So with all Difficulty so to speak, I find the enlightening also, at the Instrument Mediation again to illuminate and to understand, what we there do. And there find I so to speak, is the Mediation development on the Place the Instrument really again to recognise, also what we there do or what we there in the Hand have and so that also a Piece wide more realistic See and then perhaps for the suitable Conflicts also appropriate offer to can. And not to believe, the is Yes a Procedure, the Neutral impartial is and help shall, that the in the Dispute standing one Solution find, but it gives these Feedback, that the also the Mediation use can for their, Unfair Organisation. And that we Before that filed are. And I find, You have the in the one Essay, the I also with here then link will in the Spectrum Mediation, clear named. And the was me so far not so clear named been on other Position. So these Levelling from Perpetrator, Victim, from Attacker and Defence counsel, when the on the Negotiating table come or on the Mediation table. It gives the Discussion from Power differences in the Mediation.
[33:50]But so far was the always so connoted, the Mediator must on it pay attention, the must the Recognise and then act out. But in the Case becomes clearly, there gives it nothing to act out as Mediator, there is one powerless as Mediator, when one the Mediation begin would. The only Power lies therein to say, there make I now none Mediation.
[34:10]Yes, so to speak false Offers to make, is even also dangerous, straight now in this Case for the Victim. Since would be I very reserved. And straight when one but thereof goes out, that it perhaps at some point to Negotiations comes and come must maybe, then must one Yes also anticipate the Question, like can one now the attacked, what also one Legal claim has.
[34:36]So to speak the Back strengthen, also on Negotiating table. And I see to the Example these Conference, the in the June in the Switzerland on the Bürgenstock found has, with the Ukraine, with Zelensky and his Peace plan and the international States, the thereby were and in addition said have, so that to participate, see I one Approach at least one potential Mediators to say, OK, we set us first once in the Senses from Preliminary talks with the one Page together and look, what wants these Page, what can them offer, what is her Plan, what are their Performances, also in Support for through the international Community. And then perhaps in one more Step with the other Page to look, like them on it reacts and what possible would be. Putin has the natural brusque rejected, said, the interested me not, the is one Ukraine conference. But we have in all international Mediations always Preliminary talks, Pre-Talks, like one the says, the are often one-sided. The can about several Steps, even about several years go, until one the Parties on Table together has.
[35:53]In this respect found I Bürgenstock actually very meaningful, when one it understands, what it is. Unfortunately have also the Media the not understood and slapped and said, Putin comes Yes not, so is the not. Yes, but there would You say, the would be here one appropriate Action from Mediators, to say, so when so one Conference takes place and we are now a Team from international Mediators, commissioned from Whom also always, from the UN or like this, then go I so that there, I lead Conversations, it is transparent, that the takes place and in the Follow-up can one on the russian Door knock and it is.
[36:31]The is back-strengthening for the Victim, for the Attacked and it practises social Pressure from, at least the Door to open. Man must Yes still not Yes say, comes in, but at least the Door open. That the now Russia not made has, is stop like this. But the would be for Mediators appropriate to go. Even still the second Step, we are Yes there still continued. The Federal Government in the Switzerland, so one has in the Apron several Initiatives undertaken, at Russia on the Table to bring. After but Russia informal, diplomatic the always one Cancellation issued has, has one formal also none Invitation sent. The was also in the Media wrong understood, so a Style, the was Yes even not invited. The true natural not. And secondly has one to this Conference, has the Foreign Minister personally Putin about it informed and actually tried, one Door to open, to say, the and the was discussed. The is perhaps not in the russian Interest, but her can Yes times one Reaction on it prepare. And perhaps can one itself there on certain Points approach. Since has Russia not reacts, the Door slammed shut, has the Whole ins Ridiculous drawn, has it also in the social Media and in the famous Talk shows in the russian Television actually completely ins Ridiculous drawn.
[38:03]
The influence of the public on mediation
[37:59]So in this respect has one on this Step not reacts. It would be one Opportunity been, also the next Steps, when now again someone says, we must one next Round convened, there become similar Problems exist, like we the now in the Jürgenstock in the June had. So it would be now naive from various People to say, yes, now must we stop simple times to Moscow travelling and there make the then already with.
[38:27]The has one also already made. But I find one important Point, the You there also mention, again, because the also in other Constellations, when also natural in much smaller conflicts, says I it times like this, not in the large international Area, but also clear becomes, the Public, the Stakeholders around it, the even then.
[38:48]The Observe or also with Information on supplied become and then also natural one-sided filtered or in the large Trap stop propagandistic, that the a whole important Moment is, that we as Mediators or Initiators note must. One Non-invitation is not simple only the Consequence from informal Actions before, but the can for the The public different and although abusive then also represented become and one notices, Well, OK, the Effect is different, as ours Intention was. Yes, absolute. The has one actually heavy in the Handle. When You now again the next Round have, would be the then smart, simple despite Cancellations before informal one Invitation to send, so that not in the The public said become can, we have not invited. Sounds for me also strange. Well, it is at least, would be now the diplomatic seen not absolutely usual. With such moments, in favour has one Yes the Messages and the whole diplomatic Personnel, that one something like that also prepared, at also Face to true, those of the, the invite. And when he his Party partout not wants, then makes natural the State not so to speak one formal Avance, probably know, that them negative decided becomes. So the is not usual. In favour has one Yes the Diplomacy. And straight the, the always scream, more Diplomacy, the have obviously from such Processes little from.
[40:15]What want we Unfortunately say? Or now, a is natural very special, I have now one other Case experienced, where it even the Question from this Equalisation from Perpetrator-victim again one whole other Perspective comes in, namely in Cameroon between the Government and the anglophone Rebels, the Secessionists. Since have we three years tried, one Mediation build up, Multitrack on all Levels. And there was it now even like this, that the Government, said has, we want although Mediation, we want the Switzerland, but we want not with the Rebels on one Table set. We give those not so to speak the state Consecration. For us are the Terrorists and we set us not with Terrorists on one Table. The Rebels on the other hand, the have us natural crowded and have said, we want one international Negotiating table, For us is the the Stage, at to show, the Government is illegitimate and we have exactly so many Rights like the Government. Therefore fight we also for the Independence. The means, two total different Interests. The Government wants not with the Parties seen become, the Rebels. And the Rebels want the as World stage use.
[41:40]We Search even the Recognition and the Equality with the governing party. Man can not only simple times itself on the Table set and times above talk.
[41:51]
Challenges in the mediation of conflicts
[41:47]It has already Consequences, when one the at all offers. And the must one with consider with the Question, is the now suitable or not?
[41:58]Yes, the find I one interesting Point, similar so like at the Ask a question. Man can not also simple only times one Question place and so do, as when one so that nothing on Thesis or on Target direction has, but the belongs to with pure. Exactly, and now has the Mediation natural here perhaps various Possibilities, the a Piece wide to equalise or try, at least to change. The Interests on one similar Direction to steer.
[42:26]We have then to the Example tried, about one Process with one Roadmap, so-called Process the Confidence building, about various Phases, even Government and Rebels in favour to win, that them about these Steps the Confidence building itself exchange, about us as Shuttle diplomacy or even on Table. But in this Phase none content Themes discuss, like now even the Independence or the Constitution or the political Solution. And we have the Government promised, we stand as Mediator in favour in, that when it a such Meeting gives, that we the Rebels not allow become, the Agenda to Change and suddenly so to speak about Constitution to talk or about Independence. Since had to we so to speak in the Lead time go. Such Things can one then everything in such Processes try it out.
[43:25]
Reflection on your own mediation practice
[43:26]Mr Bächler, I would like still times to the Conclusion of the Conversation on Your Experience, Your Value progression come back. You said before us, You have already longer, and there sound both Pride as also Life experience with inside.
[43:42]The originally euphoric Ideas from Mediation or from the good People, say we times like this, ins Bookshelf placed or to the Files laid. And a Piece wide more realistic seemed me the perhaps on it to watch. How appreciate You so to speak Your Labour as Mediator in? Has the including suffered? Is it something, where You also Your Labour then different experienced? Or would You say, the is for me rather from Advantage been and, Inverted commas, a better Mediator become?
[44:15]I can the so not direct answer. Both has Pre and Disadvantages. So I have Nepal mentioned before 20 years. Since was even the Interest in the Parties not only on the Mediation the Switzerland, but also on Expertise to the Topic Federalism, Constitutional issues, Democracy and all that. In this respect came there again this liberal, perhaps also the Do-gooderism inside. And the was one great thing. And there have we very much made, also in the whole Counselling the constituent Assembly. The was in the Sense a Process, like one him itself wishes. Properties. Today, in the Contrast in addition, now to the Example Cameroon, is everything transactional. Trump leaves greetings, he has the but also not invented. It goes always at Barter transactions. It goes ultimately at Power politics, transactional Topics. The means, one gets nothing, without so to speak from the other Page the to demand. It goes then not at Democracy, at best Constitution, at Human rights, but it goes really at Tit-for-Tat or therefore.
[45:27]The other Page also nothing to give as a present or when, then wants one the Double back. So the is today one other Attitude, perhaps one other one should times one Essay again write about the spiritual Situation our Time. The are also again Stunting, when one so wants, with those one Bypass must. The can one not change. But one can Yes therefore not say, then make I nothing or none Mediation, when the Parties on it get in. But I would however today so wide go, to say, I would not more each Mediation accept. I remember the first Part on the Sociology professor Ulrich Pröttling, the the not only for Mediation, but for many Ratios described has, this Convert to contract, one Contractual relationship and so that the Tit-for-Ted. And that the not only Advantages has, but it has even also one Disadvantage, a Detachment from traditional Relationship patterns and that it even… Always in one For and Wider, one Performance and Consideration ends and that the in the Mediation on each Case Effects has on the Instrument Mediation.
[46:41]Yes, on each Case. And then hangs it also with the Heavy of the Conflict together and the Conflict escalation. Or when them in the Sahel in the 90s years between Farmers and Nomads mediates have, Then wanted the within from a pair Weeks one Solution, because the was Yes seasonal or yearly a coming back Element, Dryness, the Nomads, the ins Country flow in.
[47:09]The means, one has Solutions found, as long as even the Resources there were, the Country, the Water and so more and one could the Resources somehow divide. And today, 30 years later, can them still so good mediate, the Resources are even not there. The means, the Situation is so desperate in the reason, the Water missing, the Dryness is there, the Resources are away, the Pastureland are away. How want them there one good Equalisation find? Since is actually only still Chaos announced, that them itself fight or the one flee in a other Area. And in any case one Peace negotiation is under this Circumstances ultimately almost not more possible. The means, there has itself also very much changed in the real Relationships. Mr Bächler, I Thank you You for this not only informative, but very insightful Conversation in Processes, the we mostly not so in the View have, when we not thereby are, but as Mediators also in other Contexts the same Structures note must.
[48:17]Many Thanks to. Many Thanks to. Mr Wüchler, I wish You one good Time. Simple, yes. And I give You the Thumb. Yes, the was my Conversation with the Diplomat and Peace mediator Günther Bächler.
[48:31]Whose Experience in international Conflicts and Conflict mediation more as clear were. And the in refreshing, clearer, clearer Wise also the Situation in the War of aggression Russia against the Ukraine named has.
[48:52]
Pitfalls and considerations for mediation
[48:53]And also the Structures on it clear made has, where Mediator and where the Offer from Mediation with Caution formulated become should, with Consideration on the Context and sometimes also simple refrain must, at not Victim from Aggression more under Pressure to set, but the suitable Preparatory measures heralds and the Ball again shifts over to the Aggressor. In this Trap also clear made, that the not recorded becomes.
[49:27]We have Pitfalls for Mediations named. The Levelling from clear unjust Distributions, Perpetrator, Victim, Attacker, Defence counsel, the on round Table the Mediation pass can or even through this Table happen Go and therefore probably Considered be must. Likewise the Offers to the Mediation from third Page, from the Public, from stakeholders, their Exertion of pressure for a rationales, peacemaking Procedure there probably with considered become must. Likewise but also the Mediation as Procedure, rational aligned.
[50:10]Logics the Rationality from Contractual relationships, from Performance, Consideration, Tit-for-Tet, established in one Relationship, the perhaps already deeply unequal is, through the Conflict, through the Attack. And that one there by no means exclusively always on Participants set may, the constructive Solutions want, but the quite also this Procedure for their Perspective to the Enforcement this Perspective against the Perspective the other Party use and abuse can. When you this Podcast please has and generally appeals, then leave behind but a Feedback, a Feedback, one Star rating on Apple Podcast or with Spotify or on Google Business. The would and becomes here not only benevolent recorded, but the is also very helpful, so that this Podcast more known becomes and also about the Range the Mediators and Coaches beyond and so that for People, the the interest could. For the Moment thank you I me, say goodbye me with the best Greetings. Until to the next Times. Comes good through the Time. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host for the INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes.
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