INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#238 GddZ
Municipality as a field of conflict - conflict manager municipality
Municipalities as a field of action for social conflicts with which they must find a constructive approach.
In conversation with Prof Beate Küpper and Dr Sonja Fücker
Sonja Fücker is a sociologist and mediator. She heads the "Municipal Conflict Management" department at the Conflict Academy ConflictA at Bielefeld University. As a freelance mediator, she supports communication processes in scientific organisations and municipal institutions. She is a volunteer mediator and arbitrator for the organisation Täter-Opfer-Ausgleich Bremen e. V. (Victim-Offender Mediation Bremen).
Prof Dr Beate Küpper University of Applied Sciences Niederrhein Faculty of Social Work SO.CON Social Concepts, Institute for Research and Development in Social Work, social psychologist, external member of the board of directors of the Conflict Academy ConflictA at Bielefeld University, works on diversity, right-wing populism and right-wing extremism as well as local conflicts and their management.
Small series: Contributions from the field of conflict dynamics. Part 6
Contents
Chapter:
0:08 – Welcome to the podcast Well through time
1:12 – Conflicts in the community
4:34 – The role of social scientists
10:08 – Populism and its effects
17:44 – Demands on democracy
24:37 – Experiences from conflict management
35:46 – Professionalisation of conflict management
44:52 – Threats for municipal actors
47:55 – Conclusion and outlook for the municipality
detailed summary
In this episode, we take an in-depth look at the topic of conflicts in municipalities and their dynamics. I have invited two highly qualified guests: Mrs Professor Beate Küpper and Mrs Doctor Sonja Fücker. The aim of the discussion is to consider the municipalities as areas of conflict, both as a theatre and as a decisive actor in conflict management.
Firstly, we bring in the perspective of the researchers, both of whom have extensive experience in social-psychological research and practical conflict management. Beate Küpper explains that conflicts in society often originate from local challenges, such as structural changes or social integration issues. By expanding from a local to a global level, the perception of conflicts is particularly strongly influenced. Sonja Fücker adds that it can often be observed that local conflicts, such as neighbourhood disputes, quickly lead to larger-scale social debates.
It is clear that the perception of conflicts varies depending on the actor. While citizens often perceive local problems as significant, surveys among experts show a shift in focus towards social inequalities. This discrepancy is identified as a key challenge for conflict management in municipalities. The result is not only that municipalities act as addressees of conflicts, but also that they themselves act as potential perpetrators or active players in these conflict dynamics.
The dialogue shifts to the concrete methods of conflict management within municipal structures. It is discussed that successful conflict resolution depends not only on the professionalisation of those involved, but also on their willingness to take responsibility and deal with their own perspectives in a reflective manner. This is reflected in the need to integrate different perspectives on conflicts in order to promote a broad-based dialogue.
The fact that many citizens have a great interest in co-determination, but often do not become active in practice, is viewed critically. The tension between aspiration and reality in political co-determination becomes clear, especially against the backdrop of increasing populism. Populist narratives often characterise the perception of conflicts and distort the debate on the actual problems.
We also highlight the importance of protection concepts for those who actively work on conflict resolution in municipalities. This perspective places responsibility not only on individual actors, but also on the institutional structures that must create the framework conditions for conflict-aware action.
Finally, we reflect on the need for professionalisation in conflict management and the opportunities that municipalities have to remain capable of acting in an increasingly complex social environment. Links to the works of Küpper and Fücker, which deepen the theoretical and practical aspects of municipal conflict management, round off the discussion. The audience will thus gain a comprehensive insight into the multi-layered challenges and dynamics that municipalities are confronted with.
Complete transcription
(AI-generated)
[0:00]Well, it comes anyway the next Conflict. Therefore makes the even none Sense, so to speak selectively to fly in or to fly out, but the one Conflict
[0:08]
Welcome to the podcast Well through time
[0:08]solves the other Conflict from. The means, we must so internal Structures strengthen. Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from INKOVEMA. I am Sascha Weigel and welcome you to one new Consequence. And today want we us social Themes to dedicate. Whether already as Conflict issue natural always Persons whole individual affected are. But when one itself once make clear can, in which Field Conflicts more social Kind before all Things carried out become, then comes one not around, the Municipality in the View to take. The own Municipality, the own City, the own Village, the own Municipality.
[0:47]And exactly therefore shall it today go, the Municipality as Field of conflict itself to look at, who there Conflict actors are and whether the Municipality not only the Field, but also Self-actor is. And what there also in the last years, wants I almost say, on the Legs placed was. Because the is not irrelevant. And in favour have I me two whole competent, experienced and also scientific
[1:12]
Conflicts in the community
[1:10]accompanying Persons invited. Cordially welcome here in the Podcast, Mrs Professor Beate Küpper and Mrs Doctor Sonja Fücker. Hello. Hello Sascha. And before we us like always here the Topic concrete to dedicate, would I with pleasure from you a pair Words listen, who her are and like this Podcast. Field of work come are, the so obvious, but but sometimes from many overlooked becomes, that the for Conflict counsellor, Mediators or even also Social scientist a whole more obvious Field of work is. Maybe, Beate, lay you times go, because you the last years there whole close on the Practice on it were. Yes, Beate Küpper is my Name. I am from House from Psychologist, I am Social psychologist and work since many years actually to the Fields from positive Integration and Diversity, in the Negatives but also to group-related Misanthropy.
[2:13]To Resentment and Prejudices until towards to the Populism, Right-wing populism and Right-wing extremism, the increasingly also threatening and violent for many tangible becomes. Now have I since almost 15 years one Professorship for Group and Conflict situations on the University Lower Rhine, the Location Mönchengladbach. And here make I in the Reason taken two things. On the one Page am I involved on the large Centre study to democratised, misanthropic and right-wing extremists Settings. The becomes from the University Bielefeld in charge carried out. I am Co-author and from the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung promoted. Here analyse we the Setting in the wide Population. And here can we to the Example before two years determine, that on the one Page the People, when them on Germany look, say about the half, them See strong or even very strong Conflicts. When You but asked become, like sees the because with You before Location from, do the only still 15 per cent. The means, we have here so one whole interesting, different Perception. And the is something, what us then also in ours other projects, the in the local Field in Municipalities located are. The watch we us then more accurate to. But the is already times a first Contradiction. About this have you the last years worked. I wants still so to speak first still a little the Introductory question hold, because Sonja, you also ask, You are Social scientist. We know us already a little longer.
[3:40]We bumped into each other when it came to conflict dynamics. But tell me a bit about what you do outside of that as a social scientist, if I'm categorising it correctly? Yes, Sascha, exactly. I'm a social scientist by training and, as far as your question is concerned, how did I get into this field of municipalities and municipal conflict management? A long time ago, in my dissertation, I looked at neighbourhood interaction processes. I looked at how people live together in an intercultural neighbourhood environment and how they practice the game of give and take in their everyday lives. And then, not surprisingly, I came across conflicts that people have with each other, as you can imagine. That was my starting point.
[4:34]
The role of social scientists
[4:34]You went into the neighbourhood and listened to what they had to say. Exactly, that was a neighbourhood in Mannheim. Exactly, I did field research, so to speak, I was there at neighbourhood festivals, was invited to interviews and worked together with the neighbourhood management there.
[4:58]And yes, I made a case study out of it. And exactly, for me the interesting part, so to speak, was the fact that I didn't actually want to find out that people were dealing with a lot of conflicts with each other. That's what brought me further in my research, that I looked at, well, how does that work, how do you deal with conflicts constructively at best? I then focussed on this a little further, looked at forgiveness and forgiveness, but then ended up back in the communal space, so to speak, at my current place of work in Unterbielefeld, the Konfliktakademie Konflikter. And my studies and practical training in mediation and conflict management led me there, so to speak, through my work at an association for out-of-court dispute resolution. It doesn't sound like a local authority at first, but of course it takes place locally. In some cases, you deal with conflict cases that don't end up before the criminal court, so to speak. Exactly, that was a very good experience.
[6:10]That gave me a new idea of what your approach to the municipality is. Because it became clear in the two contributions you published on conflict dynamics that the municipality is a special field, both where conflicts arise, where conflicts are dealt with and where the municipality is. It is also a conflict actor, sometimes as a cause or as an acting actor, but of course also as a processor. Beate, perhaps based on your experience with the study and as a researcher, what does the municipality mean for us when we want to look at social conflicts or social lines of conflict? Where does community appear? You've just touched on this a little bit. Conflicts become virulent at the level of the municipality in the local area. They become directly tangible for many people. For example, when the streets are dirty, when the buses don't run, when a new refugee centre is built or a wind turbine is erected in the countryside, these are classic examples.
[7:17]Conflicts are ignited by them. This can also be a traffic-calmed zone, and the kind of new bollards that are being erected. Bypasses are demanded. Bypasses are always a classic source of conflict. For example, municipalities that have a large perimeter, a rural perimeter, where young people come and party at the weekend. Then the local caterers are happy, but not necessarily the residents. So these are classic areas of conflict. Now we have two movements. On the one hand, we have conflicts that actually come out of the municipalities. For example, they celebrate here in our neighbourhood and that bothers me. Or there is a traffic-calmed zone here and I don't want it there or I would like one. That's actually something that falls out of a typical local conflict. But we have a movement and we call it bottom-up. Research now says that these on-the-ground conflicts, which are actually being experienced, are then scaled up and linked to major issues, for example with a statement such as, "Once again you see how the state is running roughshod over our heads. In other words, it's no longer just about what's happening right now on a small local level and what I might be able to deal with, but it's immediately scaled up to a higher level. And we have the other movement, we have global conflicts.
[8:38]In other words, globalisation, the associated migration, climate change, the associated energy transition and so on, which can be felt all over the world.
[8:46]And which then make themselves felt in the community, in the local area, that was the example of the wind power council, for example, or the refugee centre. Would you say that this scaling up, this categorisation of what I can see into something I've heard about or something like that, that this is a new phenomenon or a new quality? For example, I can see it here in Leipzig, where young people have sometimes arranged to party in the middle of the forest via Facebook and have brought their own music systems and everything and, well, the nearest neighbour isn't that far away. And then, of course, there's this categorisation that young people only want to party but no longer want to work and only think in one direction, not the other. This attempt to categorise people into major trends seems traditional and old or familiar to me. Would you say this is a new form of upscaling? From my point of view, quite clearly. We have had a loud and virulent populism for a number of years now. This is not a new phenomenon. Populism, as the ancient Greeks said, is here with us. So it's not entirely new. It is getting stronger, it is becoming more widespread, it is finding many more supporters. We can see that in our population surveys. And that is precisely this
[10:08]
Populism and its effects
[10:02]The narrative that the corrupt elites up there are cheating the hard-working, honest man. This is the core narrative of populism, so to speak.
[10:12]And this interpretation, this logic, this populist logic has become very widespread, so that even conflicts that are, I'll say, very, very, now related to your forest and to your local young people who were celebrating, you can say, well, we'll have to see if we can find a solution, are much more difficult to deal with because they are categorised within this logic. And there is the second logic, which is called us versus them. This can be filled so flexibly by populism. The others, the strangers, those who are perceived as somehow deviating from the norm. And these can then be the young people of today, so to speak, who are perceived as deviating from the norm. They could be the new arrivals and so on. And that means that this populist logic, which has found its way into our everyday lives, means that conflicts on the ground are also read against this backdrop, against this interpretive backdrop, and I think it then becomes more difficult to deal with them because it then becomes, I'll say, diffuse. That's no longer the case, then you don't have the opportunity to say, watch out, let's turn the music down a bit. Okay, right, we'll get to the editing in a moment. I would still, Sonja, the commune as a place of community, the place, so to speak, where you can deal directly with the...
[11:26]People with neighbours outside the family, but still directly approachable, where this is realised. How do you look at that? Is that something that has shifted a lot in recent years, where you say that new dynamics and new logics have emerged that the community hasn't experienced before? Yes, that's always a bit of a crucial question. So whether these are something completely new or whether these conflicts are also something new. I'd like to put the perspective on that first. The much-vaunted phenomenon is that we have polarisation in society, so to speak. So there is a drifting apart, a division. Less and less communication, less and less willingness to find solutions, so very culturally critical.
[12:15]Yes, I don't know about less communication. There's a lot of communication about it. We talk a lot about the fact that society is saved and that we are all polarised. Whether that's the case, I think, is a completely different question or would that be true. But, so to speak, you can take that as an evidenced or everyday evidenced mood in society as a state, so to speak. And then the question would be, okay, what does that do in municipalities or in the municipal area? So what we know from surveys, for example, is that conflicts are perceived as much more and much stronger, so to speak. And that there is also the perception that these conflicts no longer appear to be manageable or not as manageable. So it's more of a pessimistic view. There are more conflicts and we are no longer able to deal with them with the tools we have. Would you say that's the case? How do you look at it? Is it the case that we have more conflicts that we are less able to deal with and that they are therefore getting worse and worse? Well, I would say that I'm looking at it from the perspective of my home discipline, so to speak.
[13:31]Well, we always have conflicts in societies, and I would say that there have always been such intensely perceived conflict situations. So you could think of the Cold War and all that. The 90s, the 90s in the East here. Yes, those were really big conflict situations. First of all, I would say, I'm not sure whether these are completely new phenomena, conflict phenomena. But what is important is what is perceived in society. And I think that might be something new to say. Well, we often talk about the last 20 or 30 years of so-called consensus democracy or consensus society.
[14:20]In other words, I think there is a feeling that we are no longer so used to having to negotiate strong compromises, because there are very disparate attitudes and convictions right now, because the problems are there. For me, that's part of it. If I can perhaps add to that, I would say that we have more conflicts because we have democratised. Since 1949, with the founding of the Federal Republic of Germany in the West and the Basic Law, we in the West have given ourselves a democracy that is there to somehow negotiate conflicts in a reasonably civilised way. That's what democracy is for. It says that we have 80 million people here who have very different interests, needs and points of view and somehow we have to try to come together in a reasonably civilised way. To this end, we have established democratic processes, rules, structures and so on. And then we democratised bit by bit, so from 1990 we also democratised bit by bit with the eastern federal states. And as a result, citizens' expectations have also grown.
[15:32]Firstly, to be heard, to be able to participate, to have a say. Even politics no longer reacts as, oh, the subject, but democracy as a delivery service and politics as a delivery service. Oh, the voters want it. So we've basically got it the other way round. And this has given the citizen of the citizen an increased self-confidence as a democratic citizen and thus also an increased self-confidence to say how one imagines things are going. And we're all familiar with the saying that if things don't work the way I want them to, then I say they're not democratic. When I give presentations like this, I say, well, we have 80 different ideas about how it should work. And that's why I would say again that we actually have more conflicts, because a lot of things that were previously accepted, where there was also dissatisfaction, but which were accepted as quasi God-given, oh, you can't do anything about it anyway, are now seen as, well, why can't you do anything about it? I have the right to have it resolved. I think there is a connection between the positive democratisation on the one hand and the conflicts that at least break out more on the other. That's an interesting point to say, politics as a delivery service.
[16:40]So if that's the picture, yes, I can understand the excitement or indignation that is often described in the trade journal, the daily newspaper, that things aren't working. But that's where the point of taking action yourself gets lost, so to speak, because you are part of the community and can't always just blame the politicians or those who could do something. Is this something that is now emerging as a conflict in the municipalities, that they have to make a claim?
[17:15]And not take action themselves. In other words, the phenomena that the major parties are declining, etc. It is seen as problematic that fundamental structural issues or structures that are part of democracy have been called into question. On the other hand, movements are also emerging where people want to get involved, where they want to become active, where they want to overturn things and also democratic structures.
[17:44]
Demands on democracy
[17:41]I think that's another area of tension, Beate, that you just mentioned. On the one hand, there are citizens who have a greater demand for democracy and participation, and perhaps politicians who are lagging somewhat behind, i.e. who, let's say, ideally want there to be more democratic participation, so to speak, but who are sometimes overwhelmed in one area or another when it comes to implementation. For example, we are now seeing this in local authorities, as in the example of the energy transition already mentioned.
[18:15]So there is a great endeavour by local authorities to say, yes, we want to involve everyone, we don't just want to inform, but we want the people who live here to be able to support a decision and gain acceptance for it. So there is a lot of commitment and a lot of investment on the part of local authorities. And these processes are incredibly difficult to implement and that also causes a lot of dissatisfaction because they don't seem to be coordinated very well. So the legal procedural guidelines, so to speak, don't fit in very well with the requirements of real, let me say in inverted commas, participation.
[19:00]And that's something you often work through. Sascha, because you also mentioned this, just the area of tension, yes, on the one hand people want to participate more in democracy and on the other hand, what about responsibility? We also asked in surveys who is responsible for conflicts and how they are dealt with? And the majority, over 80 per cent, said yes, the government and politicians.
[19:25]As many as 60 per cent say that they themselves are responsible. If you look at what we hear from local authorities, then there are also some, yes, a bit desperate moods to say that very high demands are placed on us as a local authority, so to speak, in terms of how the community should be organised here. So things like waste paper is simply dumped in front of public places because people think someone will clean it up. Or dog faeces that is littered around the city. In other words, responsibility as a citizen is delegated in part to the local authority.
[20:11]Yes, perhaps once again as an addition. I would agree with you, you gave the example of the energy transition measures, where citizen participation is now virtually mandatory, for example when, we were just talking about wind turbines, but now there are also other examples.
[20:28]The problem is the point in time when citizens are brought in. That is one thing. Often the apple has already been peeled. And we know this from our own study, which we once carried out with funding from the Mercator Foundation, a democratic culture of conflict for the energy transition under the leadership of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research. It was really interesting. We focussed on, let's say, the uninvolved. Those who weren't so much involved in the conflict, who weren't yet part of a citizens' initiative, for example, who were, I don't know, against the wind turbine, but who didn't really realise it at first, who were busy with their own things. And it was only when the decision was made and it was in the newspaper that a new turbine was going to be erected here, that they started to do the maths. They said that we hadn't even been consulted. There was great despair on the part of the accompanying participation agency, which said, yes, we've been asking for three years, but you haven't come. In other words, we have a time delay, we have different levels of attention and interest as to when you can actually participate, so to speak. And one example of this is that we actually have many... I'll say organisations and structures where people can get involved in shaping the municipality and the community in the run-up to conflicts.
[21:42]Clubs are one example, parties are another.
[21:47]trade unions and so on. So we actually have a lot of structures that make it possible to be actively involved and have a say in many things. However, we know, and this is what the social sciences tell us, that we have been experiencing a decline in membership for many years, that people, i.e. churches, trade unions, parties and so on. Potential hardship. Exactly, so that means that what we already have in terms of established structures, and that's another big challenge for the eastern German states, they have fewer of these established structures because, of course, back then everything ran through the party, so to speak, and through working with it, and when that broke down, these structures were often no longer there. In other words, you had to start from scratch to rebuild such structures. That's why this civil society organisation is another major challenge. But there are now also many such organisations. Nevertheless, we can see that there is more of a decline than responsible participation. And as a social psychologist myself, I'm also a bit negative, because I think, yes, it's easier to complain than to get involved. Or what is the case. That's true.
[22:58]When it comes to complaining, it's actually easier. It doesn't have the consequences. That's actually the case. The positive news, the lesson learnt from Stuttgart 21 in the noughties, was that people only come when the trees are to be felled. Not when you read in the papers that the supreme court has now ruled in favour after ten years. If you were to take that as a sign of progress, it would be that they are coming sooner. I want to make the point, because I combined this earlier, that the municipality is now not only scaling up conflicts that it is experiencing itself and recognising changes in what it is producing itself. For example, in recent years, it has been common practice for us to put stuff outside the door that we didn't want to declare as waste but thought others could still make good use of. And for a few weeks now, this has also been a criminal offence in our country because it simply creates too much rubbish on the street. You can simply use your good conscience, someone else can use it, and simply make a mistake and cover up the fact that you just want to be rubbish-free. So that's a conflict situation in the community that comes from the community. I now want to focus on the issues that are spilling over, so to speak, i.e. the energy transition, which involves major projects and changes. Migration, which was one of the issues that municipalities had to deal with.
[24:21]Ultimately, what problems have arisen. A lot has happened in terms of preventative or reactive conflict management, which you both did.
[24:37]
Experiences from conflict management
[24:32]You accompanied them as an observer, sometimes also as a conflict manager. What experiences are important that were made in the first phase, let's say, of the first ten years?
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[25:13]So we have, I'll say, in conflict management, under the demand to manage a conflict, the, I'll say, subliminal thesis that there really is a problem. So you mentioned rubbish on the street. That's a big problem in the municipalities. It really is a problem. And then people get upset. Then they are more open to populism. And then, in the worst case, they become radicalised. That's the storyline. That's the usual thesis, even now in view of the upcoming local elections in North Rhine-Westphalia and the success of the far-right AfD party. It's always seen as if we have to solve the problems and then people will become more democratic again. I myself would put a big question mark over that, because we have a strong populism that is already looking for its next conflict and, of course, there is always a conflict. And that's a huge challenge when it comes to dealing with conflicts, to keep that apart. The Conflict Academy at Bielefeld University conducted a large survey of the population and asked which important areas of conflict are there at the moment from the population's point of view? The top answer was.
[26:20]Was internal security, migration and asylum and freedom of expression. Over 75 per cent voted in favour of this. It was interesting when we, Sonja, you also asked about local government. Immigration was also an important point for 40 per cent, as was security and order. But transport was also mentioned by many. The citizens didn't mention it at all. And we also asked conflict management experts, which you did. And they said first and foremost that it's not so much about migration, but about social inequality. We have a lot of rubbish in the West and then it's blamed on the immigrants from south-east Europe, on the Romans, and they always say, yes, it's all down to the foreigners. The conflict management experts say that it's mainly about poverty and maybe it's also about the lack of rubbish bins. And that could be the first thing to change.
[27:11]That was a very simple, concrete example of who actually names what as a conflict? Who is even asked what is labelled as a conflict? And here I'd like to return to your point, Sonja, that the municipalities basically have a doubly difficult task here. On the one hand, it's their job to tackle conflicts. On the other hand, they are also co-actors when, for example, they don't put the rubbish containers out, but just put a little note on them saying please dispose of your rubbish properly. That's a joke, of course, if people are no longer there and perhaps can't even read the note. In other words, this dual function of municipal administration is also a major challenge for conflict management.
[27:53]Yes, I would definitely say that. So she is not just the addressee of such conflicts, so to speak, but she is also in demand when it comes to ways of dealing with them.
[28:05]On the one hand, it is the client in many cases, but it is also a party to the conflict. And that is, perhaps to look at it again from the perspective of conflict management, a major challenge. So how do I deal with such a constellation of conflict parties as a conflict manager or mediator? So how do I bring all relevant parties to the table in the case of communal conflicts? This can include civil society actors, representatives from business, the church, etc. In other words, all the groups or stakeholders in a local area. In addition, of course, employees from administration and local politics, decision-makers. Perhaps one more point, because I found what Beate said interesting. So how do you deal with it methodically if you have the impression that the wrong conflict is being named? Or the citizens say that it's the traffic or the rubbish heap and in fact, at least according to the interpretation from the outside, it's about poverty. How do you approach this methodically, so that perhaps the citizens in the questionnaire clearly say so and you now, as, let me put it this way, the scientific elite.
[29:28]I'm deliberately using this term elite, reinterpreted, because you recognise that from your studies, it's about poverty. So it seems to me that this problem is inherent even in the scientific monitoring and observation. So there is a danger that we will be reinterpreted or not taken seriously. That's a methodological difficulty, isn't it?
[29:53]Well, I would first say that the task of research in this case or the scientific monitoring that we do is first of all to create a space for reflection in order to say, some say that this is the conflict and others say that this is the conflict. What does that mean?
[30:11]This does not, so to speak, provide evidence that one or the other is the conflict, but rather to create the space for it, how do you look at it? And that is interesting both for local authority representatives in this case and for, let's say, experts in mediation and conflict management, to take a step back and look inside themselves and see, aha, okay, is this really all social inequality when people who work in local authorities say, well, I'm totally overwhelmed here, trying to manage the volume of immigration in my local authority. Managing and integrating people well and comfortably, that's the question. And perhaps to add to that, that can also help again and that is often seen as very helpful by the municipalities in our experience, to say, oh well, we have different perspectives on the conflict and to open our eyes to it again, to get different perspectives again. Because the experience of local authorities is often that a few citizens are upset, they then write a lot of complaints to the local authority, they may also sit on some committees and have a loud voice, they may also be supported by a local medium that dominates the interpretation of a conflict.
[31:32]And if you then ask the citizens, they may not be so dissatisfied or they may see something other than a conflict. And in the case of the mountains of rubbish in the Ruhr region, for example, the Roma themselves are generally not even asked. They are also not involved in conflict resolution. In other words, opening up the view can also be very helpful for the administration, to say, be careful, ask for a few more perspectives. What is actually at stake here? What are the different parties to the conflict concerned about? And to open your eyes and say, are you sure that you have asked everyone? Or do you only ever ask those who are loud, who take the floor at public meetings or something? Then we know that some voices are heard. And we have many who are quiet, who are not heard, who, I say, live in the neighbourhood, for example, and say, oh, we can manage that somehow differently or actually we have completely different concerns. For the municipal administration, the experience is sometimes quite relieving to say again, people, look at the different perspectives. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this, Sonja, as a first step towards conflict resolution. I would say that too. We know that from our scientific monitoring, for example. So we accompany different approaches and procedures in communal conflict management.
[32:45]So that can be conflict counselling, that can be conflict management, as Beate has been investigating for many years, but also other approaches. And let's take a look at how this is done. How do these processes work? And an important point is of course to look at who is sitting at the table? That's something you can say in general terms. This is a huge challenge for conflict managers. Raising awareness, so to speak, in one place or another, that this is precisely what is important if you want to resolve or deal with conflicts constructively and sustainably in the local area. What are the proven experiences when a local authority brings in employees internally or even permanently externally and professionalises conflict management? In other words, it looks at such studies and says, oh, we can't just jump on the first horse that comes along, we should rather do another loop, ask again, check again, do we have the right people? We take on new processes and offer dialogue formats.
[34:04]What is the experience? Let me put it this way, does it work? Does it work for those involved, both in the municipality as employees and for the citizens? Do they realise that it's helpful? So basically, as you've just touched on a little, there are these two different approaches, one is to enable more professionalised conflict management from within the municipality itself and the other is perhaps due to the conflict itself, perhaps due to the extent to which the municipality itself is involved as an actor or how escalated a conflict is, so that municipalities say they can no longer manage it on their own, then conflict management is also provided from outside.
[34:41]Who helps again with a more distanced view, i.e. who goes into the municipality for a while and goes out again. So we know, I think, and I think that's clear with both procedures, that it takes time.
[34:53]So to think that is often the desire of the municipality, ah, here we have a highly escalated conflict, now why don't you come and resolve the conflict? I think that's clear, no matter what procedure you use. It doesn't work like that. It always takes time. It takes the acceptance of and the will to take on a certain amount of responsibility and self-reflection. Because ultimately, all stakeholders are always involved. And even if they don't want to be involved, they are involved by looking the other way or not participating. They are then also absent from conflict management. These are the many people in highly escalated conflicts who say, "Oh, I don't want to get involved, I'll cross the street," to put it bluntly. They are also absent from the conflict management process with their position. In other words, whether we like it or not, we are part of this conflict. So that means you always need a degree of self-reflection and a willingness to think about your own perspectives,
[35:46]
Professionalisation of conflict management
[35:42]to at least listen to the perspectives of others. So those are two important things.
[35:46]In the KUKU project, which we ran for three years with funding from the Mercata Foundation and the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, we promoted municipal integration. So these were conflicts that were linked to integration and migration. Whether they always have anything to do with it is another question, but they were associated with it, so to speak. And then we said, well, that's based on the approach that the conflict mediator Kurt Faller once brought from the corporate sector into municipal conflict management, saying, well, the next conflict will come anyway. That's why it makes no sense to fly in or fly out at certain points, so to speak, but one conflict replaces another. In other words, we need to strengthen the internal structures. And we generally already have people in local authorities who are sometimes more, sometimes less professionalised and whether they like it or not.
[36:33]dealing with conflicts. These are neighbourhood managers, but they are also heads of department from public authorities, they are people from welfare organisations, they may also be pupils, they may also be teachers. So we have a lot of people, maybe even the person who picks up a kiosk on the street corner and talks to people. So we have a lot of people in local authorities who are basically already doing the role of conflict management, but who have not always professionalised it and in the project we tried to qualify people again and the result was that, yes, it does help, it takes time and, above all, it takes trust. It needs the trust of the city leadership and the clear will of the city leadership that something actually happens. Those are two very important points. And then, after a while, a really positive result was that we managed to set up a conflict management system from within the municipality. In other words, who do we actually need to bring to the table? With whom should it make sense to have a short line of communication? Where is something brewing? Okay, you make a phone call. Before it escalates, maybe we can do something on a small scale? Before the public order office arrives, first ask the local social worker, people, what's going on? They often have more direct contact with the people. You can catch a lot of things in advance before things escalate. So setting up a system like that and it actually works, and that was the thing I found most positive, it was actually de-stressing.
[38:03]It's relaxing because you know you have a bit of a systematised approach. Who does that de-stress?
[38:10]It de-stresses the person in complaints management, for example, but it also de-stresses a municipality in its conflicts. Because it's clear that we now have experience of how to get something like this over the line in a reasonably constructive way. We don't have to look the other way first and then wait for it to escalate. Instead, we approach the conflict with a little more courage and self-confidence and say, okay, something is brewing here, let's sit down together and see how we can resolve it better. And this experience alone, that it works, de-stresses and creates a certain security. And in the best case scenario, Sonja, it leads to something like this, which in conflict management - I've learnt this, I'm not from the field - is called transformation of conflicts, right? And that addresses the point that you made, Sascha, about what changes the conflict management process in an urban society or, so to speak, in the municipality or in the administration. Yes, the transformation would be the icing on the cake, so to speak. But I think that would also have to be considered separately. You also have both roles, this mediatorial role, that you work with people in dialogue, i.e. in mediation, but also the more distanced view, albeit turned towards, but still from a distance, of an entire municipality, that what we do in individual classrooms.
[39:35]I have noticed in mediation settings that people say, yes, I have the impression that I no longer avoid so many conflicts. So I've let go of the hope that I can now end my conflict here with mediation and just go towards the sun, I now approach conflicts more calmly, that an organisation like a local authority can do that too, where yes.
[39:57]Conflict, escalation in the political arena is also the objective of structures. So in parliament, they are supposed to argue with each other. It would be disastrous if they were all always of the same opinion. I don't mean that in a patronising way, but it really is designed for that. Can such an organisation, well, it's a completely different organisation than an economic unit. They should all be going in the same direction, even if they are of course pursuing different objectives internally, these departments. In a local authority, the point of the democratic process is to ensure that the organisation is able to deal with conflicts more calmly. Can they take a more relaxed approach to conflicts or problems that arise? Yes, I think you are addressing a very important point on the question of, well, are conflicts undesirable in a democratic system, so to speak? I would say, well, something like polarisation is also part of it. But I think the main difference you have to make here is that the municipality, i.e. the administrative unit, is of course different from local politics.
[41:02]Politics and administration are, so to speak, two interacting parties to the conflict. This is the hybrid nature of the municipality, as they say. And we also know from our accompanying research that local authority representatives, i.e. specialists and managers in local authorities, are often very strongly confronted with conflicts that they have to deal with at a local political level. In other words, requirements that come from local politics have to be implemented at the administrative level, so to speak, and this in turn has to be communicated and further implemented at the level of the resident population. And these are conflicts in themselves. And what is very interesting is that in our interviews we asked the local authority representatives, for example, how do you deal with conflicts in the authority?
[41:56]And a very high proportion, i.e. over 60 per cent, answered yes, through the personal commitment of employees, i.e. specialists and managers. And this varies again according to status group. That is of course a finding when you say, well, these are people who work in local authorities, who are more or less expertised. Some have mediation training, further training, some have not. But it is very much the individual commitment that is brought in and not necessarily the internal structure, as Beate has just said, which is in place. And at best, you get support from outside, so to speak. When the person leaves, retires, retires, then the issue is also over in that form. Beate, you have another point. Firstly, as we know from other spheres, companies and organisations, it's the art of creating a structure that gets away from these committed individuals who are competent, qualified and so on.
[43:04]At the same time, of course, a lot of responsibility is assigned to these people. And the unpleasant things are also shifted onto them, so to speak. So then something like this is expected of the external conflict mediator, who comes flying in and makes the conflict go away like a magic fairy. And then we don't have to change at all, but the conflict is gone. That's what is expected of this person. I think this is a very important point that we should address again at the end. I briefly touched on the topic of populism and right-wing extremism at the beginning. We know from surveys, not of our own but of others, that threats are blatantly increasing. This applies to political office-holders and elected officials, mayors, but also to civil servants, for example, and to people who are involved in civil society. It has risen dramatically and that is why protection concepts are needed. And here, too, it is precisely these people who are somehow recognisable.
[43:59]Those who are perhaps recognisable on the positive side because they are used to dealing with conflicts, but at the same time are also very isolated, they need protection. Here, too, it's important to move away from it being the responsibility of the individual when they get shitstorms, hate mails or something like that or perhaps worse, but it's also a task for the structure. We know that from every school, from every case of bullying, it's the responsibility of the institutions to move away from the victim. And we know that support is the be-all and end-all. So I think that's a very important point that we have to keep reminding ourselves of in this conflict. There's a lot of emotion involved in conflicts and there's also a lot of anger and aggression when it escalates, and it's correspondingly easy to make threats and even attacks, so in my view this issue must be taken into account and protection concepts are needed for this,
[44:52]
Threats for municipal actors
[44:50]just as we have with every, shall I say, fire. A crisis is a preventative measure and that's why we have this idea of communal conflict management and I would like to link it to threat management. Prevention means that we do something before the child has fallen into the well and don't wait for it to hopefully pass us by. It will not pass us by. And that's another important insight from the survey you conducted at the Conflict Academy, Sonja. When you ask managers in local government which conflict is particularly important, they say traffic.
[45:23]The processing level says that much less. On the other hand, the processing level says hate crime and threats much more often, because they get it. The manager at the top often doesn't realise this because they are often not so close to the field and therefore have no contact, no information and are also not so close to the population. So I think that's a point that absolutely has to be taken into consideration, because threat is something that causes shame. You don't want to look weak as a representative of a municipality, and that's so important that it's taken into account. The issue of commitment in the municipality is not just a question of professionalisation, so to speak, but also of protection for these people, because they are currently under protection. That has to be taken into account, so to speak, and that is an experience from your work in municipalities. We know this from business organisations, for example, when it comes to conflict management. Not in this form. That's an interesting point. I hadn't realised it before, although I know from other contexts that local authorities have just as much difficulty filling their vacancies. Communal politics, commitment. And that certainly has to do with the fact that it is now not only a thankless job, but also a dangerous one. It's not for nothing that we now have emergency buttons in the social welfare offices. Thank you very much.
[46:45]Beate Küpper, Sonja Fücker, for this informative discussion on the topic of municipalities as areas of conflict, as conflict actors and also as conflict managers. You have also formulated the whole thing in various essays in the second issue of this year's Konfliktdynamik. We will also link to your articles in the show notes for this podcast, which can also be viewed with the kind permission of Nomos Verlag. And they will then be public for a period of time, so to speak, so that anyone who wants to delve further into the topic can read them. And they are really worthwhile. So both the introductory article on the municipality by you, Sonja, and the article by Beate, which you wrote with two colleagues. Municipal conflict management, a response to local crises. Thank you very much. Good time for you. Thank you very much. Both of you. Also, thank you very much. Professor Dr Beate Küpper and Doctor Sonja Zücker. Once from the Niederrhein University of Applied Sciences
[47:55]
Conclusion and outlook for the municipality
[47:52]and from Bielefeld University of Applied Sciences. Two researchers who come from a practical background and take a practical approach to the matter with a scientific eye.
[48:06]We talked about the municipality, about municipal conflict management and the challenges faced by municipal employees, functionaries, office holders and whatever else they are called.
[48:21]And it's not just the conflicts - and I found this an important differentiation - that arise from the community, i.e. from the everyday lives of people because they live together in the community, but also because changes in big politics, even in world events, have consequences that then arise in the community. More or less suddenly become noticeable. We have touched on a few examples of how, for example, the energy transition affects the life of local politics, local representatives, the major issues of migration or political and populist events. So these are lines of conflict that are opening up and that municipal representatives, municipal officials, have to deal with. And we have looked at initial experiences that go hand in hand with the professionalisation of municipalities. Professionalisation in dealing with conflicts and dialogue formats, mediative processes. A first insight. I can only recommend a second look to you. The two essays that both Sonja Fücker and Beate Küpper published recently in Konfliktdynamik. This is the second issue of this year 2025.
[49:46]Both will be linked in the show notes and on the website and will also be directly readable for a certain period of time and will be briefly brought out from behind the paywall, so to speak, or the paywall will be opened to stay in the picture. Thank you very much for being here with us again. Please support this podcast by listening and, if you haven't already done so, by recommending and subscribing. If you like it and would like others to find this podcast more easily because they haven't found it yet, you can easily do this by giving it a star rating and writing a comment, for example on Apple Podcast or on the other platforms. This works digitally so that others can also listen to it. I bid you farewell with best regards. Get through this time well. Sascha Weigel, your host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation Management in Leipzig and partner for professional mediation and coaching training.
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