INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#233 GddZ
Nuances of the new technologies
Where do we consultants stand with regard to ChatGPT&Co.
In conversation with Dr Frank Termer
Doctorate in business informatics; mediator and conflict moderator; expert for difficult conversations in the digital transformation, association officer (BITKOM) until 2025
Small series: New technologies for mediation, coaching and counselling
Contents
Chapter:
0:26 New technologies and their challenges
23:02 Johnny Ives and the future of AI
25:17 Practical applications of AI in counselling
Summary of content
In this episode, we look at the latest developments in new technologies, particularly with regard to AI, mediation and coaching. I have the pleasure of speaking with Frank Termer, who gives us an insight into his perspectives and experiences. As we discuss the challenges of integrating new technologies into the way we work, it becomes clear that despite the advances in technology, many existing problems remain.
Frank discusses his relationship with generative AI applications and how he uses them in his consultancy work. He produces a "toolbox" of tools that help him to manage administrative tasks and optimise his services. He emphasises that ongoing developments in AI technology, such as the update to the GPT-5 model, are not only improving in quality, but also increasing the efficiency of their application.
We look at the different applications of AI in the consulting world and how these tools can be used in communication and office organisation. Of particular interest is Frank's insight into the developments in technologies such as Anthropic's Claude, which focus on creating customised applications that can support the advisory process. We reflect on how the AI market is diversifying and requires a specialised approach to best exploit the benefits of technology.
In addition, we discuss how the role of advisors is being impacted in this changing environment and what strategies established advisors are pursuing to remain relevant. While some are reluctant to digitise their methods, others see the opportunity to use AI as a valuable tool to enhance their advisory offerings. We also pick up on the need to integrate the technologies into training programmes and the importance of maintaining basic consulting skills while learning about new tools.
Finally, we take a look at future developments in technology and draw parallels between the innovations we are seeing in AI technology and changes in other areas. Looking ahead to upcoming episodes, we consider which experts and practitioners we can invite to share their experiences of using AI in counselling and mediation. In the fast-paced world of technology, it is imperative to stay current and continuously learn in order to succeed in tomorrow's professional landscape.
Complete transcription
[0:00]Music.
[0:17]New episode. And this episode is another one about new technologies and Frank Termer is one of them. Hello Frank.
[0:26]
New technologies and their challenges
[0:27]Hello Sascha. Nice to talk to you again. Frank, new technologies, old problems. I've just realised that my question is being answered in silence and is probably reaching you with a delay. You're in Berlin now and I'm here in Leipzig.
[0:45]Exactly, I'm here in Berlin. I can hear you clearly so far, but it also seems to me that there's a slight delay in how the answers are received by the other person. Then perhaps that would be a task for the follow-up, to cut out the pauses or it will still be jerky. Exactly, that's how it will be and cutting out pauses, that was also yesterday. It's now possible with AI and it works all by itself, saving an hour of time. Today, we're really here for ourselves and can determine where we stand with AI and mediation, conflict counselling and coaching. What do you do with it and what do I do with it in the company to give you a brief insight? That would be a bit of a topic for today. What does that look like for you, Frank? You come from technology, you've now gone into independent consulting, so more direct communication. What is your current relationship with new technologies?
[1:56]Yes, exactly. So a lot of things have already become established. I find it really exciting how we can now talk about generative AI with everyone as a matter of course. Everyone has found their own approach, has already tried things out and brings new facets and aspects to the table, because the one thing that hasn't changed yet is the continued very high speed at which things are developing, what is being added and what changes are taking place. And I've simply decided to focus on a certain area, a certain set of tools that I keep an eye on, because it's simply completely overwhelming to keep up with the multitude and abundance of other things. At least that's how I feel personally, I just can't manage it. But I've now put together a small toolbox that I use regularly for various tasks and I've become a bit more experienced, you could say, they've oiled things up a bit and established a few standard use cases that I use quite regularly. And if I can hear it, they are mainly in the administrative area, i.e. how you organise your small company, how you manage the office and the marketing tasks, or do you also have tools that you use to interact with customers, so to speak.
[3:22]No, it's actually more limited to administrative tasks and background activities. In concrete terms, ChatGPT is still the main tool I use when I'm travelling. And since the last update to the GPT 5 model, I think it has evolved again and made a significant leap in quality. I don't know how you perceive it, but with this GPT-5, all the previous models are no longer so explicitly available for selection, which you could still select manually in the past. If I now take the O3 or the mini model or the 4, whatever, in order to be able to decide for myself what I use and for what, GPT-5 now does this independently and decides on the basis of the prompts and the tasks that are given.
[4:06]Ultimately, which model is used in the background. And the results are still better, so they are also getting better, the speed has improved again and you can manage with fewer tokens. This is perhaps also exciting for all those who are perhaps still travelling in such a free model, where sometimes every token is so important. This has been significantly reduced again and I still mainly work with it, of course I also have other tools for other special use cases, but it's precisely the marketing and text generation, so to speak, to be a sparring partner for others in the industry, which we have already discussed in depth, that I still find ChatGD to be the best tool I can use, at least for me. Especially because I have now personalised it so much and set it up with personal things that it is already very well tailored to me, just as I already know the tool. That makes a lot of things relatively easy for me. Do you know what your experiences are like now or are you still an intensive chat GPT user?
[5:11]Yes, of course I've now also noticed this upgrade to the Model 5. I didn't get the impression that it was such a huge leap. There are improvements, of course, but it just seemed like an upgrade, as it sometimes is. So I realised in the news world that it wasn't what was promised or what was expected of it. And in the meantime, I've personally moved away from using chat GPT, but out of interest and curiosity about other tools in particular. Claude here from Anthropic, but other colleagues of mine still use JetGPT, of course, we have our account there too and that's what we use. As I said, I've now taken Claude's account because, in addition to these issues of office organisation, customer management, external and internal communication, i.e. everything that is not explicitly consulting work, so to speak, I have focused more on this topic. So what is possible and feasible for consulting work?
[6:32]And it so happened that I was invited to speak at a major mediators' conference in Switzerland. The Chamber of Journalists organises a big conference every year and I was asked to speak on this topic. And more has happened over the last few weeks. Counselling tools, counselling assistants, counselling AI assistants have come onto the market and this has been a development, so to speak. And I also find Claude from Anthropic very attractive and very helpful, because it not only allows chat, so to speak, so that it has a chat option that can then also be made available to customers, but they build their own applications and you can see how the machine builds the application, so to speak, how it programmes it.
[7:33]I'm not a programmer, so I can't judge the content, but it's very fascinating how it's presented there. Do you know that from Cloud? Have you ever seen it? Yes, well, I've been following it a bit and I've seen from the press that, in my view, the generative AI market, if you like, is starting to split up a bit or that these specialisations are crystallising. And I fully agree with you that in the cloud sector, these topics - programming, application development, etc. - are becoming increasingly important. They are actually crystallising as one of the main points. And I also hear this from my network, where there are also many techies who really speak of good to very good results and don't go for ChatGPT, for example, but really have their special connection or also use the cloud, sometimes quite intensively. And I've already seen that in the last few months, you can say that this AI market is specialising and splitting up a bit, as I just said, where people are saying.
[8:37]ChatGPT is still very much part of this chatbot area, for many text applications and things like that, it has more or less become the standard. What I still use a lot myself is Perplexity, everything to do with research, analyses, this better Googling, if you like, or knowledge searches. Which parts of Google want to take over. Exactly, Perplexity is a bit of a top dog.
[9:09]What I see at Google is that Gemini has dealt a lot with these topics of agents and multi-agents. So it's a lot about process automation, really professionalising processes, automatically connecting things etc. They are very strong in that area. They are very strong in this area and the fourth area is Microsoft's co-pilot. Of course, they are looking very closely at all business and office applications. So they have now integrated all these classic tools, such as word processing, spreadsheets, building presentations. This co-pilot is integrated everywhere and also integrates itself into the e-mail inbox etc. And it wants to act as a quasi all-encompassing companion in the office context. And I find it exciting to see this development, as this market was very fast-moving at the beginning and everyone was trying to catch up and build similar things, with which it is now splitting up a little, specialising and differentiating itself.
[10:08]Yes, so that doesn't just apply to the development of technology, but also to the reactions of our colleagues, the world of consultants, if you like.
[10:23]How do you develop your own strategy? How do you act on it? And, of course, there is still this mesmerised amazement or even awe of, well, as long as they are not better than me or us in the consultancy, I don't have to worry about it. And of course you still worry about whether a machine is doing better counselling work and at least delivering measurably better results for the client. You can still argue about it, that's the big question mark, not just for counsellors or communication or conflict counsellors, but for every professional group. I think that's one side of it. And what has already emerged is that there are others who say, well, we're going to take an active approach and build applications that provide advice. And we feed them with our knowledge. So there's a colleague from Berlin, I think, Guido Fiolka, who I think has an application called Seraya or Serifia. Seraya, exactly. Seraya.
[11:35]Exactly. So a coaching, a coaching AI application. And that's where I see the strategy, so to speak, that this application, this one application, should do all the counselling work. Maybe not yet, I've tested it once or twice, but the underlying strategy is already so holistic. So if a machine like this is built, then we should do it, something like that.
[12:04]And the AI strategy of other colleagues is more practical and application-orientated, and also how I approach it, personally or in the AI Compass with colleagues who always join in on a monthly basis. So it's more about building small applications, outsourcing coaching or counselling tasks and very specific trainings that carry out the conflict analysis there, for example, and you build an application that asks for and works out the information that is important for a conflict analysis during the conversation with the client and that you don't have to do exclusively in the coaching session. And at the moment, I think that the development is simply incredibly accommodating. I can see that very clearly with Claude. I can build something that needs to be programmed, but I don't do it myself, I can just instruct it, I can arrange it, but I don't have to programme it myself. And so anyone can practically build very simple applications that are highly effective and can say that my coaching doesn't just take place in the one and a half or two hours of face-to-face time, but also in between. And where the average consultant used to give out a handout with a questionnaire to delve deeper into one issue or another.
[13:34]Can he now link an application.
[13:37]Which is made possible and available to the customer in a very interactive way. At the moment, I think that's a very practical approach to using and familiarising yourself with AI models and AI applications. Yes, what you describe is something I've already seen in two or three examples from other coaches and consultants who consciously advertise it as a USP, so to speak, as a differentiating factor, as you've just said, and who can then of course clearly state the advantages, They are able to offer this time and location-independent counselling or give a certain amount of control back to the coaches, saying, hey, you can work through and deepen things when it suits you, when you're in the mood, when you can take your time. And then I'll get to see it or we can build on it and then talk about it again together. But the control, in inverted commas, lies a little more with the coach, who can also steer the process and can of course also decide to a certain extent how the interaction develops at that point. And I can also see, as you described, that some people are very pioneering, yes.
[14:51]Yes, and this hype circle, this hyping up, the whole world collapses and then only AI is discussed and we consultants have to see where we are left. This is broken down into a very practical development history that we all already know from other developments, where we can say, okay, now we can take a practical approach. We can see what kind of handout we can make.
[15:19]Do I make another one on paper or do I use an AI application that is built with the help of AI, so to speak, and then also makes AI available to the customer? So it's very modern, technological and can be done on a smartphone at any time. But it still has my thumbprint in it. And then again, we can probably see that there are different applications and qualities. And consultants will continue to compete with each other to see who has put together the best overall package. And I find that very, very stimulating and very catchy, because that is the development that we have seen again and again in recent years.
[16:11]Although I have to say, I like using it now. Yes, although I have to say that it still depends on the result and the quality of the result. So from my perspective, as I see it, that is still the main focus for most customers and clients. So what's at the end of a blogshop? What's at the end of a coaching session? What comes at the end of a mediation? Has it developed and presented itself as hoped and desired? And from my point of view, it is of secondary importance to look or see whether AI is being used or whether it is someone with a modern approach or not. I think a lot of it still runs through established networks, perhaps also through habits, acquaintances and previous projects that people have done. And of course AI, the technologies, will certainly change the approach on both sides. But my perception is actually still that the result takes centre stage. So do I reach my goal with the person who is now working with our colleagues or not? And the how is still a bit secondary, it's not yet in the foreground.
[17:22]Yes, exactly. And will only play a role if it improves. And that's the exciting question. How will my counselling work improve with the use of technology, with the explicit use of technology or not? And somehow we are all in a decision-making situation here, each of us individually. It really is an open question. But I think it's very nice to see that this other development is not so.
[17:53]Yes, but I think it's very nice to see, and you can mirror this again, how you see it in the market right now, that a lot of training providers or training providers in the field of conflict management, communication, coaching, you can actually be arbitrary, that many have integrated this technical topic and also AI into the curricula and also create an awareness of it, so to speak, a sensitisation. Raising awareness and saying, hey, this is now a conscious part of the training. And yet it is still necessary to teach the basics and continue to include the content, to continue to train the methods, including through practical exercises and role plays, but also to include this topic of technology and AI.
[18:34]Because otherwise, as I hear many people say, the saying that a fool with a tool is still a fool still applies. So if you have someone who somehow hasn't mastered their craft, you can give them the best tool and they won't get any better, you need people who know what they're doing and who are really technically and methodologically up to scratch, and for them it's really like a catalyst, another booster that they can get to really take another three or four steps forward, but if I don't have the basics, then even the best tool won't help me at that point.
[19:09]Yes, I agree with that. And in mediation, it is also a legal requirement to teach technologies in training, mediation work with the help of new technologies. At the time, this was of course tailored to the pandemic, so that you learn how to mediate conflicts in the changed framework conditions of the online world. So if you're not sitting directly opposite each other in the 3D world, but just in the 2D world. But of course, the developments in AI and computing power and so on have given this a completely different drive, so that we are also obliged to teach about AI developments in this training programme. But of course this is not a fixed timetable and every training programme does it differently.
[20:07]Since I like to use the AI Compass as a platform where I deal with it anyway or we also deal with it at the institute, this is of course easy for us, but of course it remains a small part of the training. So the legislator has increased the scope from 120 to 130 hours. This is also clear from the fact that it is now supposed to be a small aspect. But this of course obliges us, at least for mediation training courses, to deal with the topic and also to deal with it intensively so that we can teach it or at least instruct others in it.
[20:48]Yes, we're doing that in the K&A Compass, you're also there, we're doing that anyway Absolutely So I think that's a super important development or, Maybe one more question at the end. Today we want to deliver a rather concise podcast here. What do you think is an important development at the moment and, in connection with this, a person, a dialogue partner here for the next show on the new technologies that we should focus on? Yes, I have a wish or an idea that I'm relatively sure we probably won't be able to realise at this point. But I want to say it anyway, because it's really something, yes, you may have seen that back in May or June, OpenAI, the company behind JetGPT, bought a startup called IO.
[21:44]A AI hardware start-up, so really a Company, what itself with Technology to the Touch busy, where AI with built-in becomes. And the was authoritative driven forward from the Johnny Ive. The is his Character the at that time Chief designer from Apple been. And the find I total exciting, that one now so this Step goes, not only alone AI as Software to view and to realise, but obvious here on one Device in the furthest Senses works, where AI somehow as Everyday companion with thereby be shall. So one has still not so right found out or listened out, what the actually is. So shall it now somehow one Kind Smartphone or one Glasses or what also always become. So it becomes somehow a Hardware device and a Gadget be. It shall but none Screen have, it shall also none Glasses be. So so right white one it still not. But one can itself on it leave, when Johnny Ive something like that co-developed, so the really with Steve Jobs then for the whole Apple, for this Apple upswing also stand. And the Design luminary is one Position, there becomes what Great with get around in fact. And there are all so very tense, straight because itself also MyEye the Takeover 6,5 Billions Dollar has cost leave. Since am I very tense. And when you it manage, Johnny Eiffen his Podcast to get, so then am I the First, the with pleasure listens and perhaps also a pair Questions provides. But I believe, the is rather one difficult Position.
[23:02]
Johnny Ives and the future of AI
[23:02]Yes, I have belongs to from him, that he much to do has. He would be with pleasure come, but he has much to do.
[23:13]But good, the would have I perhaps know must, when I already to Wishes and Ideas question, then come natural also such. And I take the times with so on the Agenda. Yes, I says times, who perhaps more realistic is on the Position, the one with Security also here very good integrate can, is the Sindre Wimberger. I white not, whether you those already times encounters are, so like you belongs to have. He calls itself itself so The Botfather, so the Father the Bots in the furthest Sense. and the has really a very crass and broad Knowledge about the whole Developments, the there so happen. Has also one great Newsletter, almost also daily Briefings. So can I very recommend, who itself the really daily times give wants. The Sintra Windberger is there really very wide before and very valuable Insights, the he there supplies. Perhaps is he times a Candidate here.
[24:03]Yes, the is on each Case also noted. Equal direct behind Johnny Ives.
[24:10]And I have still so as Idea had also, that it Time would be, Colleagues to enquire, whether them Desire have, here times one Podcast to participate, the even whole own Applications built have and utilise and which Experience the make. So, that we even not again so very in the Technologist direction Go and the newest Developments so to speak discuss, the significant be can, but the first Experience, the one made has, the Colleagues made have and the then here with each other discusses. Because me, like said, the Impression won have, there is now already what grown. Since gives it whole many Initiatives and we had Yes also here already the Thorsten St Vitus from ISB Wesloch, the their ISB-Chatboard then developed had and them is also wide sophisticated and have a whole Agent system built. So there worthwhile it itself so to speak, the View to the Colleagues to direct, the even so that now Experience made have. You, absolute. Super Idea, so absolutely.
[25:17]
Practical applications of AI in counselling
[25:17]Yes, so on each Case, because straight these Perspectives from the Practice out are super valuable. How already on Beginning said, one can alone these Developments even not Track and in the Depth also not with accompany. In this respect learn we there also with pleasure always still what in addition. Find I one great Approach. Leave us the with pleasure make. Yes.
[25:36]Frank? Leave as is You itself for the Moment here. I thank you me, that you again with thereby were. To, I believe, now already longer Time, I have now earlier the Consideration had, it has already a little lasted and all the more more happy am me, that you now here again there was and we Ideas for the next Months to the Podcast here in the small Rows, new Technologies for the Mediation and Counselling developed have. Yes, super with pleasure Sascha, Thank you also for the Invitation. Exactly, I happy me always again here to be, am also tense, what there still on us comes and yes, Thank you you very, that you the more here so pursue with the new Technologies with Good through the Time. With pleasure. Ciao you, until soon. Thanks to you also Sascha, everything Good for you and we listen us. Thanks to, ciao, goodbye.
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