INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#227 GddZ
Mediation and administration
Mediation within the administration is different from mediation with the administration.
In conversation with Greg Bond
Mediator, facilitator, trainer, lecturer and translator; Mediator BM®. Member of the scientific advisory board of the Master's programme in Mediation and Conflict Management at the European University Viadrina. Member of the mediator pool of the state of Brandenburg. Advisory board member of the Mediation Centre for Europe. Member of working groups at the Competition for International Commercial Mediation at the International Chamber of Commerce, Paris, at the Moot Court Bench, Colombo, and formerly at the CDRC – Consensual Dispute Resolution Competition, Vienna. Since 1994 at the Technical University of Applied Sciences Wildau, teaching Negotiation and Mediation and Intercultural Communication. Professor of Mediation at the New Vision University Tbilisi.
Small series: Fields of mediation
Contents
Chapter:
0:05 Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit
1:32 Greg Bond's experience in mediation
4:55 Mediation in the public sector
7:45 Challenges in administration
10:49 Systemic considerations in conflicts
15:15 Order clarification and hierarchies
18:45 Patience and process design
22:51 Voluntariness and participation
26:05 Results and decisions
33:42 Trends in mediation
36:30 Individual discussions in mediation
39:39 Conclusion and outlook on the work
Summary
In this episode of the podcast „Gut durch die Zeit“ I shed light on the logic of the Mediation in the context of administrative organisations. With my guest, Greg Bond, a seasoned mediator with extensive experience in government, we discuss the specific challenges and opportunities of mediation in this area. Our discussion begins with a consideration of the role and development of mediation in government, a field originally intended for mediation but which has faced many hurdles in practice.
Greg, who is originally from the UK and came to Germany in the 1980s, talks about his career and mediation experience. His journey began in teaching and evolved into the practices of conflict management within public administrations through an in-depth mediation training programme at the European University Viadrina. We shed light on the complexity of how mediation works within hierarchies and the impact these hierarchies have on the dynamics of conflict. Greg emphasises that mediation in the public sector does not necessarily involve more difficult conversations, but often faces specific institutional challenges that are very different from the private sector.
A key issue is understanding that mediation in administration does not always take legal structures into account. Rather, it is an endeavour to build interpersonal relationships and an appropriate conflict culture. We discuss the various parameters and challenges that mediators need to consider when working with public authorities and administrative organisations, in particular the tension between the expectations of management and the needs of employees.
We also look at how the Visual concept of "opening spaces" versus "seeking paths" in mediation is important in administrative organisations. Greg shares his observations that opening up spaces for dialogue often does not provide the expected creative freedom, while finding workable ways to deal with conflict is seen as more appropriate. This picture opens up interesting perspectives on how mediators should operate in administration, but also recognises that flexibility and creative solutions are often limited within highly structured frameworks.
Another focus is on clarifying the mandate and the important one-to-one discussions, which are often neglected in mediation practice. Greg emphasises how essential these one-to-one meetings are in order to develop an understanding of the parties involved and their motivation. This dimension becomes even more important as the voluntary nature of mediation is often not given to the extent that would be desirable. Instead, mediators must accept the reality that many parties do not participate in these processes entirely voluntarily, which can affect their engagement and the quality of outcomes.
To conclude the episode, we take a look at developments and trends in mediation, particularly in the wake of societal changes and the pandemic. Greg has seen an increase in demand for mediation services in recent years, but also recognises that this perception is not necessarily representative of the field as a whole. Nevertheless, there are signs that the topic of conflict culture is becoming increasingly important in organisations, which can be interpreted as a positive signal for the future of mediation in administration.
Overall, the episode offers valuable insights into the world of mediation within the administration and gives practitioners ideas on how to prepare for the complex challenges of the field.
Complete transcription
[0:00]The logic of mediation, i.e. this transformative approach to the relationship,
[0:05]
Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit
[0:04]works too well for me here. Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit. The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. A podcast from INKOVEMA. I'm Sascha Weigel and I'd like to welcome you to a new episode. And today's episode is about a field of work for mediators, a field of application of mediation that was an explicit field of work in the early days of mediation and was originally intended for mediation, but nevertheless had great difficulty establishing itself there. This is because we are talking about the field of administration, mediation with the administration, mediation initiated by the administration. So these are differences that were then also strongly discussed as to whether this was possible at all. I researched this myself during my time as a research assistant and I am glad that I can talk to a mediator here today who is very experienced in this field of work and has many years of experience with administrations in mediation or with mediation. I would like to welcome mediator Greg Bond to the podcast studio. Hello.
[1:16]Yes, hello, good afternoon. I have announced that you have experience as a mediator with administration and targets. You have also commented on this in publications. It will certainly not be the only experience you have had as a mediator.
[1:32]
Greg Bond's experience in mediation
[1:29]and probably not the only professional line of work. So first of all, who are you and what do you do and, for mediators, how did you get into it? Yes, as I said, my name is Greg, Greg Bond. I'm originally from the UK, but I've lived in Germany since the 1980s.
[1:51]And I was a university lecturer for a long time and still am part-time at the Technical University of Applied Sciences Wildau. I started out as an English teacher and then moved more in the direction of communication and practical, application-related communication, not so much communication science for students in business law, management, business administration and a lot in English. After a while, that wasn't really satisfying for me and I looked around to see how I could make a bit more of it and did a mediation training programme. A really good one, the Master's programme at Viadrina.
[2:28]So you didn't do your mediation training in Germany, so to speak, and then in your country of origin, in the UK? No, I studied German language and literature in my country of origin, also in Germany. I am a Germanist by training and even wrote a doctoral thesis in German studies. But that was a long time ago.
[2:46]And I did my Master's in Mediation at the European University Viadrina in 2010 and 2011. We can talk about mediation in a moment, but I also want to take advantage of the situation. What was it like for you as a Brit in the East in the mid-80s? There were only a few people who made it here, if I may say so. You mention that I lived in Leipzig for two years in the 80s, back in the GDR era. I came to Leipzig as a recent bachelor's graduate, I had completed my bachelor's degree in German Studies in England, because I had already spent a year in Hamburg as a young man and wanted to get to know East Germany and was an English teacher at what was then Karl Marx University in Leipzig. And what it was like, you ask, it was exciting, it was thrilling, it was great. I was young, Leipzig was colourful and lively, not colourful in the real sense. So the ostriches were grey, but the people were colourful and interesting. It was full of life, full of energy. It was about something, so you got the impression that people were really interested and moved. And I made an incredible number of contacts. Not least because I was English in Leipzig and a bit exotic.
[4:01]Reminds me of the black and white video of an Englishman in New York. But in Leipzig it was actually grey visually and, as I heard from many people, it felt colourful even back then. And then it became quite colourful. It was a great city back then and a few years later there were the Monday demonstrations in Leipzig. I wasn't there then. And then came the fall of communism. And I had gone back to the UK at the time. At the time, I thought I would get a professorship for German studies in England somewhere. But that didn't happen, for good reasons. And I came straight back to Berlin and Germany in 1990. And then she ended up in mediation, so to speak, which was still in its infancy at the time, but probably with a spirit of optimism, because that was the time when mediation was promising.
[4:55]
Mediation in the public sector
[4:55]Well, I only got into mediation 20 years later, in 2010, 2011.
[5:00]So quite a bit of time passed before I came to that. So I wasn't in a midlife crisis, but I was already at the age where I could have had a midlife crisis. I had to look around and see what I could do now. And then came mediation. So we're talking about 20 years later now. Yes, okay. Let's just skip over that. And since then you have also entered into difficult discussions with the administration, mediating administrations as mediants and probably also as clients of mediation.
[5:36]Yes, that's right. I'll start with the client. Yes, but I think that's also the speciality. And I would actually be interested to know how you experienced the administration opening up to this. I was at the Bildau Technical University. Back then, we're talking about 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago, and it was developing. That's when it started in Germany that many organisations in the private sector, but also in public administration, in the public sector and the university, which is also a type of administration, that many organisations started.
[6:13]To set up conflict management systems and conflict counselling centres. And that's what I offered and did at the THW. And since then we've had a small conflict counselling centre. So in this respect, the client of mediation is a bit bigger than it is, because we are a small university. But we actually have an internal conflict counselling service that offers conflict coaching, mediation and moderation. And occasionally external mediation is also utilised. So I don't do all that myself.
[6:40]I can remember that I started to deal with mediation in concrete terms in the noughties, in the middle of the noughties, and then had mediation in and with the administration as a topic as part of my doctorate. And a major point of contention was to work out and develop this idea or this understanding that the law is not negotiated there, that the authority can present itself as an actor without committing itself prematurely in its administrative decision. And it was definitely problematic. In the meantime, I have gained the impression that this is no longer the case in practice. If mediation is not used, it is not for legal reasons, but for the usual reservations about mediation. I can definitely agree with you on that. So in most public organisations that offer mediation, whether through internal bodies or externally, it's not about law. It's not about justiciable facts. It's about working together.
[7:45]
Challenges in administration
[7:46]However, there is an area where mediation and law, I'm only talking about my experience, play a major role. I am now also involved in supervising mediators, so I also offer case discussions and also for arbitrators in Germany. And some administrative courts also offer mediators and I have a group there and they tell me that it's sometimes not so easy to get the authorities and administrations in favour of mediation, especially in this context. Because of course they are already in court or potentially in court. And that's not so easy. But in my view, it is a special case when it comes to organisations and administrations and authorities that have internal issues. And yes, the administrative court is no longer internal. It's about administrative acts towards citizens.
[8:34]But when they have internal issues, and then it's rarely about legal matters, very rarely. That was never a problem at my university, so it wasn't an issue. And in these cases, do you notice anything special in comparison to other organisations, because the authorities or administrative organisations not only have this attitude from the outside, but sometimes also from the inside: we are a very special organisation, we are not out to make a profit, but we are somehow bound by law and order, we are interested in stability and not so much in innovation. Is this a prejudice or do you also experience this in mediation, that there is something special about it? Waiting for mediators. Are you talking about internal or organisational conflict management?
[9:21]Yes, exactly. So it could be workplace conflicts with public sector employees or civil servants. You asked, the penultimate question, whether I deal with difficult conversations. And I can only say that in the public sector, mediation in the public sector, yes, sometimes there are difficult conversations. But I do a lot of mediation in business and in other organisational foundations, associations and so on. The discussions are no more difficult in the public sector than anywhere else. They are sometimes difficult wherever mediation takes place. So that's not the speciality. Okay, that's good to note. There are no particular difficulties. Are there any special features, especially in comparison to other organisations, that you notice, ah yes, but you can tell from this that you are now dealing with a public authority? I think yes, one thing is the strong hierarchy. The hierarchies play a different role and possibly a bigger role in administration and public authorities because they are very firm and because the employees in these organisations expect a lot from their managers, who are higher up in the hierarchy. So I think that's something special or expecting different things.
[10:33]And the other thing is that there are a few parameters, i.e. in the public circumstances, that perhaps make the whole thing a little less flexible.
[10:49]
Systemic considerations in conflicts
[10:44]So as far as openness to solutions is concerned, resources are limited. So opportunities to deal creatively with conflicts are perhaps not so easy to find. And in business or in NGOs or in foundations, where I work, it can sometimes be a little easier. And we have clear collective agreements, clear salary levels in the public sector, clear job descriptions, in other words clear rules that everyone has to adhere to. And we also have limited resources. It's not like we now have a workplace conflict, so we change the team constellation. Or we transfer someone as a solution. Or someone gets an offer to work somewhere else in the organisation. Sometimes it's all possible and sometimes it's quite difficult to find movement. I have developed a picture for myself and I would be interested in your opinion as to whether you think this is also suitable. In mediation, we often talk about opening up spaces for dialogue and opening up spaces for dialogue in mediation. And what I have noticed is that this idea, this metaphor of opening up spaces.
[11:54]That there are far fewer of them in administrative organisations or among employees. Which is more inspiring than the idea that we are looking for roads, we are looking for paths that lead to where we want to go. And my explanation, or rather why the image fits so well, is that with roads and paths, these are the feasibilities, they have guard rails and an administration can be more easily connected to them, so to speak, and more easily start to say, ah yes, there is a way there and we can take it. But opening up a space is, I would say, too creative and too uncertain as to what you want inside. I find that very interesting, the image, because you'll have to give me a moment to think about how I can relate that to my work. We have time. So opening up spaces, yes, then you would ask, what for? If it's just about dialogue, about exchange, yes, wonderful. But if it's about changing a workplace conflict or a systemic problem in an organisation.
[12:55]Then perhaps the image of a path is appropriate for public institutions, because the flexibility is not always there. And I don't mean flexibility in people's minds or flexibility in people. I mean flexibility in terms of resources for change. They are perhaps a little narrower. That's what I mean. And that's what I mean by the image, the path, it has to be there, it can't be created, it has to be there. And then it is also allowed to go. And sometimes it might be a beaten track that you haven't travelled often or something. But yes, when it comes to the space with the question of what for, I find that very fitting. And paradoxically, I also find administration very efficient. You can't simply start a strategic dialogue where you don't yet know exactly what it's for. So what's the point? Well, what I also do, which also has to do with administration and authorities, is that I moderate large events that authorities offer to the public. For example, refugee accommodation is being built. Local residents are invited.
[14:03]The why is pretty clear. It's about information wars, it's perhaps about picking up the residents to a certain extent, which is sometimes not so easy. And then you can say that a space is being opened up here with a specific purpose. But if you say, I have a conflict in a ministry between the head of department and the head of division or head of unit and another level below team leader, why open a room? If the solution space is actually quite limited, limited to, they have to get along somehow. Then it's about how they get on with each other. These forums that you mentioned have actually been wrested from the administration, so that they are considered sensible. I'm thinking in particular of building and planning law, where it has developed in a very similar way over the last 20 years, that mediation rooms, mediation talks are actually offered because, as Stuttgart 21 says, a lot has been realised in this context. You can't just insist that you've gone through the legal process here and that it's all legal. The citizens will only come when the trees are felled and that may be after the last court decision, but they won't go away so easily. But I think this "why" is totally important, namely in the clarification of the order.
[15:15]
Order clarification and hierarchies
[15:15]That is my concern when I am invited to offer mediation or facilitation in the public sector. What do you want to achieve and what resources do you have? So not resources specifically, like the solution, but also time resources, process resources. And are they enough to achieve the what for at all?
[15:36]And that is very different. But that's why I can relate to your image of a room, but there are rooms of different sizes. Yes, that's also a nice image in this context. Perhaps I'll use the keyword again to clarify the order with the administration. So if the administration asks, we need a process, perhaps mediation. You are the client and at the same time also a participant. What… experiences have you had in this context and would you say that it is essential to ensure that you don't get onto the slippery slope? You absolutely have to talk to the decision-makers. This is not very different from mediation in all workplaces where there are decision-makers and people who are being decided upon. So you have to talk to the people who make the decisions, even if they don't necessarily have to take part in the mediation. They often have to, but you first have to start at a high level and look at what they want external support for, what their ideas are and then you have to darken the parameters, various parameters, before you can perhaps take the next step and again in the preliminary discussion mode, possibly, not possible at all, we start a joint procedure, then you talk to the parties concerned.
[16:53]So if it's a team, maybe not with each team member individually, but sometimes I do that too. But definitely with the manager who will be in the mediation and the team representatives or, if it's not a team mediation, with the two or three people who will be involved in the process. You have to take the hierarchies into account when clarifying the mandate. That is very important. And for mediators, this also means that you have to know them, i.e. you have to have a basic understanding of the administration and its organisation. What else is in store for mediators who have perhaps been listening up to this point and are about to say, yes, this is exactly my field of work. I want to be involved with mediation in administration, I can't imagine anything better. What should these mediators bring with them? That's two questions now, Mr Weigel. What do you need and what should you bring with you?
[17:49]They have to go together. That's where the two questions meet. I'll start with what's in store for you, if I may. What you are facing is often hardened conflict. Conflicts that have unfortunately been there for a while. So the escalation is sometimes there, but also the duration. And then you get a request from the authority or the organisation saying it's urgent and then it takes time to get the job done. So it's not like you can start the week after. So you have to be, and now I'm turning this around, what do you need to bring with you? Patience.
[18:28]Very good, yes exactly. And persistence. Not persistence in the sense that I'll solve the problem for you and I'll keep at it if you want me to. You can count on me, even if it's a long question, yes.
[18:45]
Patience and process design
[18:42]What they could also face are processes with different elements. So in mediation training, you usually practise scenarios. We have two, maximum three parties in the room and they are always in the room. And then you go through these nice five phases or six phases, depending on how you've learnt it. And everyone joins in. And everyone joins in, exactly. Exactly. And what I then experience in organisational mediation, workplace mediation, also in company and above all in public administration, is that it is a process with different elements, where sometimes some are involved, sometimes others. Sometimes a higher level of the hierarchy is involved, sometimes not. Then there are individual discussions, preliminary discussions. If you work with teams, sometimes there are delegates from the team who then negotiate with the management. And you don't have to accompany all of this, you have to help shape it. You need to have a feel for how to organise a process and what to offer. Because customers come and want this expertise. They don't want me to say, okay, let's sit down together. That's not enough. We want someone who makes a process proposal.
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[20:11]That has something to do with the way I see myself: I give advice, I give procedural advice, I also think along and make recommendations. That's where I sometimes see the line that some mediators think they have to cross and become unprofessional. But that's exactly what's needed. Well, we definitely make case recommendations and that's what we should bring to the table. And these are recommendations at the procedural level.
[20:40]So now I recommend that I go back to my client, which is probably the HR department. And I now recommend talking to them and them. And now we leave this constellation for another one. And then we go back to the first one after that has been successful. So we need this procedural expertise and procedural recommendations. But sometimes it is also necessary or it helps, if the client wants it, to make recommendations on the substantive level, if you like, on the level of the conflict. And that is also part of clarifying the assignment. So what do you expect?
[21:16]Support, moderation, mediation or a bit of organisational consulting. You have to ask that at the beginning. I think about it when I ask the question. Do you see a task for the mediators? Are they able to localise themselves once again, are they willing and able to do this? Or do you also perceive a development or a trend that this is increasingly no longer as problematic as it was perhaps sometimes discussed in the literature and the pure doctrine of mediation? And this applies not only to mediation, but also to organisational developers who then immediately interpret and pathologise phenomena such as people changing and then not coming and so on, that they don't want to and that this is not being done seriously. I don't understand that now. Pathologising, what do they mean by that? If, for example, a working group says we want to clarify this and then two people aren't there at the second meeting and a third person comes along and has another appointment, you don't immediately take it personally in the sense that they don't take mediation seriously, but it's simply the working logic of administrations that a lot of responsibilities are also regulated there. If we as mediators were to take such things personally, then we could give up the job.
[22:36]So of course the participants, the parties, have the right to be there voluntarily. That sounds paradoxical, because of course they are not there voluntarily in administration.
[22:51]
Voluntariness and participation
[22:47]It may be that it is recommended by the management and then they go. The initial meeting is not always 100 per cent voluntary. But everything they do in the process, every step, everything they contribute to the dialogue, is voluntary. And if they don't come back, that's that. And I have also experienced this in team counselling sessions in these formats. Then there's a team consultation, then there's someone who doesn't say anything all day. That's fine.
[23:15]That's perfectly fine, because voluntariness comes first. I don't know how we came to that conclusion. I wouldn't pathologise it in the same way. I look at what's there and assume that the people who are there have good reasons for acting the way they do. Crying, and I've already experienced this, and not only among mediators, that when an assignment has been given, we want to clarify this, and then the counsellors, mediators, experience that individual people have other things to do and are not there for the second session. And you sort of integrate that into your own mediator logic. Yes, so if this is not taken seriously, the appointments, then this is a game or it shows the whole problem. And then it's interpreted from the perspective of counselling, so to speak. And that is then not compatible with the logic of the organisation.
[24:10]Yes, that may be, but that's too judgemental for me. It may well be that it doesn't fit. But then there are reasons why it doesn't fit. And I wouldn't judge it in the sense that they don't want it, they're not really into it. Mediation, the process that they carry out, is a small part of their everyday work. It is not possible to first understand and respect that. So they say they'll get back to you and then they don't get back to you. So I'm totally in favour of these principles of mediation and the principle of personal responsibility. It's like this.
[24:46]And I think that mediators in this field also have to be prepared for the fact that it is not as perhaps thought or desired. They want mediation and then do it like textbook mediators, but it's very practicable. It's a building block in the calendar. These are flexible processes, they are processes that are planned differently at the beginning than they end up looking like. And we have this flexibility. That doesn't mean that we don't keep at it, but we keep at it to the extent that the parties and participants want us to. You mentioned the classic process as used in mediation training, so I'll come to the end, to the result of such a process, such a procedure, and the result is very different. So it may be that the result really is an agreement, even in writing, and everyone shakes hands and says we've achieved something. It may be that the mediation does not end without a result, but not with such a concrete result. But I think it always leads to decisions.
[25:57]Decisions that the people involved either make for themselves personally or for the company.
[26:05]
Results and decisions
[25:59]or the organisation as a system or the department within the organisation. It leads to decisions. And that makes such processes very different from the image I got from my mediation training. I believe that many prospective mediators also realise that mediation leads to agreements at the substantive level. I don't always see it that way. This is both a legal issue, but it also became very important in practical terms in several cases that I accompanied, where the decision-makers from the authorities, the decision-makers in mediation, had to make it clear and say, well, we can't legally fix this decision here, but I have to do it in the committee, in parliament or in this decision-making round. There it will be decided legally, but I can agree on it here, so to speak, and give them certainty that I will go into this round with this result and I will submit this recommendation to the committee or parliament. But the mediation forum is not a justiciable forum, so these are not responsible parties. The decision has not yet been made justiciable, so to speak, but it is a kind of obligation.
[27:19]Declaration of commitment? In any case. I can remember a case involving the head of an authority and a long-serving employee. I have had several cases in the public sector and this is perhaps also a special case where attempts at dismissal were unsuccessful.
[27:34]Also unsuccessful in court. People have sued or have rightly kept their jobs in court.
[27:42]And then the organisation asks itself, what do we do now? As you can imagine, the working relationship is not particularly improved as a result. On the contrary, I had a case where, after a very emotional meeting, they agreed that there would have to be a severance payment and that the person would then leave voluntarily. But they couldn't finalise that, it had to be clarified with the ministry how it would be done.
[28:10]So it's just like you say, it was a promise, an agreement, but the implementation then needs another body. Yes, and that's where the trust in this agreement comes into play and it's very risky for the parties to get involved, also because they have sometimes learnt through delays, through lengthy processes, that I can't trust them. Especially when public authority employees are simply replaced because it is simply in the logic of mandates that they are only given for a period of time and we are not always dealing with weekly mediation here, but sometimes with years. Yes, sometimes years, but in any case months. And then there is perhaps the offer, well, the topic that I sometimes had in such mediations was manager, employee, manager, middle manager. I was promised for a long time that my performance would be recognised and that I would get a higher pay grade. That I would move up. And the manager says, yes, I've always worked for it, always worked for it, which is perhaps or probably true.
[29:17]But it is not decisive. That is then decided by another body and the other body in the mediation rooms would be a variant. But in this case, this promise may be repeated in mediation and then it is still not implemented. And then the disappointment and bitterness is all the greater. Yes, it's the same in the current case. And the logic of the organisation is recognisable and that is extremely frustrating. That's also part of mediation, a very personalised process, so to speak, where people are brought together who act to the best of their knowledge and belief and with honest intentions, if things go well. They react, but the logic of the organisation is sometimes contrary to this and everyone stands there and says, I didn't want it this way. Yes, exactly. But you have to live with the fact that, as the face of the organisation, you also get the frustration. But when they come and say that we have a relationship conflict in department X, I always ask myself during the order clarification process, what else? And what's wrong with the system? And then you have to take a systemic approach, which I believe mediators in this field, especially in the public sector, need to do.
[30:35]Which points in the system are important for decisions? How are decisions made? Who decides? Where are the limits? Where is it restricted? And what options do the people in the system have? It's never a relationship conflict. Sometimes it's played out like that. And it's often criticism of leadership styles. That should not be neglected. It's justified, of course. But it's not just that. I think that's a clever idea, because the logic of mediators is often the other way round. A factual conflict is always presented, but then we always ask about the relationship level. But in public authorities it is exactly the other way round, but it is a very important question, what else? The logic of mediation, i.e. this transformative approach in the relationship, doesn't go far enough for me here. I could use the example, but I would rather generalise it, and say that personalising the conflicts, i.e. saying that it is this clerk or this supervisor, is what makes the whole thing bearable in the first place. In other words, if you would otherwise be powerless in the face of an organisation and perhaps even a member as a civil servant.
[31:43]Which would simply be even harder to bear psychologically, like an Asterix situation where you don't just want a form as a visitor, but you imagine that you are an employee of this organisation. Yes, I don't know about that. That goes a long way. It almost sounds like a very harsh criticism of the entire public administration. I don't want that. That's why I would also like to say that I have worked in this public administration.
[32:09]I've seen a lot of managers who are really sincere in their endeavours to find solutions, to find ways forward, to be constructive. I have also often experienced this within the system in which they work, where there really can't be every freedom. I didn't want this statement to be aimed solely and exclusively at government organisations, but rather at the tensions between people and organisations in corporations and in large organisations in general, that it is difficult to bear these paradoxes and contradictions.
[32:44]Incomprehensibilities that you experience as a person in and with an organisation, that one way out is to say, this is this person now and I have a conflict with them, because otherwise I would have to go mad. In organisations. That was more an aspect of fundamental criticism of modernity, so to speak. Yes, I can go along with that. The term culture comes to mind. Organisational culture. And such mediation processes also lead to some participants realising that this is not my culture. Almost the same as you say. You pin it down to one person and that's almost easier than looking at the system. But I have actually experienced that some people from the business world have gone into administration. Then there are conflicts, then I come in as a mediator and find out that they are struggling with the culture in the administration.
[33:42]
Trends in mediation
[33:39]And in this respect, mediation as a decision-making aid. If I fit in here, it's mine. Now that we have looked at the conclusion or the end of mediation, so to speak, perhaps an outlook or an assessment of how you have experienced the last few years, are there trends and developments that you have also noticed for mediation, where you say something has happened, something has changed.
[34:02]Whether it's because of the pandemic, of course, or because of the wider political climate, is mediation in a better position in more difficult times than perhaps before the pandemic and the decades before, when it had good times but was in a bad position and still in its infancy, so to speak? So that's a difficult question for me, because I don't do empirical research and don't intend to, so I can't really speak in a qualified way about it because it overlaps with my personal history.
[34:36]And I've been experiencing for 15 years that I'm getting more and more mediation and more and more assignments and more and more interesting assignments. But I can't say whether that's really representative. That would be totally bold. Maybe it has become more established, but maybe it's just that I've simply grown into it more. So it's hard to say. But what I can say is that more organisations are now thinking in terms of…
[35:02]Comprehensive health management and so on, how they deal with conflicts and whether they should openly address this issue of conflict culture and whether they should even set up conflict counselling centres and conflict management systems. That is on the rise, yes. That also applies to my experience and I find it very beneficial that they differentiate between their own history of advancement and entry into mediation and don't generalise and think that's, yes, I think that's just great, because I think we have to pay attention to that as mediators. Mr Bond, thank you very much for this interview. And if we haven't yet addressed a point that is important for mediation in and with administrative organisations because I simply didn't have it in mind or we haven't touched on it yet, then now is another good opportunity because we will then come to the end of our discussion. So I would mention one point, even if it is a detail and not a summary and so on, the basic conclusion. You had sent two or three questions in advance. Not all the questions you asked, but two or three rough guidelines. And one was what was not included in the mediation training, what is important. And I have an answer to that. Individual interviews.
[36:22]One-to-one meetings are neglected in the training programme and are not
[36:30]
Individual discussions in mediation
[36:25]enormously important. In my experience, they are extremely important for internal mediation. I use them a lot as a preliminary discussion, but in the process. And that's where mediation training could do more. And the individual discussions, I'm now assuming organisational mediation, not only with the client, but also with the parties who have already been identified by their colleagues and say, here they are, they need to talk to each other. As you know, I have an international background, I come from the UK, I've also worked a lot with international mediation, I've travelled internationally and one-to-one meetings have long been a marginal topic in the German mediation landscape, even frowned upon and not wanted with the philosophy that we all have to know everything.
[37:12]And international is it natural aisle and would exist, that one with the Parties separate speaks. The found I much to. The find I a interesting, important Detail for me, also one interesting Observation. In fact am I a Friend and Supporters the Conversations in the large Forum. In Organisations is it but separate from the Client person. The gets natural first really a first Conversation and wants the also frequently. And it right, or I can the with the Experience from Authorities.
[37:43]Abklein, at least what me straight so in the Head comes, that there first Individual discussions wanted are, much rather wanted as in other Rounds and other Forms of organisation. The was me so far still even not so clearly, but the right, the want first on favourite first individually speak, what frequently with the Duration the Conflicts to do has, the about years sometimes went. Has also with something other to do. And when it a Individual dialogue as Preliminary discussion is, has it so that to do, not with the flippant Idea, the want first the Mediator get to know and know, whether them with him work can, but them would like also look, whether the Mediator understands, what the means, Management responsibility in this System to have. Or whether he understands, what the means, Problems with the Hierarchy in this System to have. Because very frequently goes it at hierarchical Ratios. The want we first scan. The is already one Kind Examination and Admission interview. Many Thanks to. Yes, I Thank you also. The was a important and really instructive Detail. And a more beautiful Plea, also the more serious to take. I will the in mine Training programmes realise. The leave I You on this Position. And the have I now even not pre-glued.
[38:57]I have so in, two ulterior motives now yet, the were straight fresh, because I with Organisational mediation straight one Education finalised have. And there have we also Individual discussions practised. But the again related, so for the Parties to the conflict, for the Mediants, for the individual Persons, the in Dispute stand, the makes me much Sense. Therefore can I unapologetic this Promise here deliver. and the Listener and Listeners, the itself then the next Course do want, the know, what on them is due. Okay, then comes the also still pure. Yes, very beautiful. Mr Bond, I Thank you You for this Insight in Your Experience and wish
[39:39]
Conclusion and outlook on the work
[39:34]You everything Good for the more Labour in and with Administrative organisations. Many Thanks to, Mr Weigel, for the Invitation. I wish You with this Podcast series everything Good and also with Your Mediation training. Greg Bond.
[39:50]Experienced administrators Mediator, but natural not only, but in Organisations and Large group events very experience. With him could I about these Experience speak and work out, what Mediation in and with and also through Administrative organisations initiated, means, what on Mediators comes and like one itself, and whereupon one itself there prepare should and prepared be should. When you these Episode and the Podcast in total please has, but also when it you not please has, leave behind but a Feedback on Apple Podcast or Google Business. The Helps a, that other this Podcast find, the the so far still not could and b, that I me also again steer in can due to of the Feedbacks. What needs it here and in which Directions should itself this Podcast develop further? For the Moment thank you I me, that you here with thereby was and say goodbye me.
[40:49]Music.
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