INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#197 GddZ – Bullying in the workplace. Risks and protection against psychosocial stress.
Podcast feature #04
to the
Local conference Halle (Saale) – 21. 11. 2024 – of the Deutscher Arbeitsgerichtsverband e.V. in cooperation with MLU Halle
In conversation with Prof Katja Nebe (MLU Halle)
Prof Katja NebeLawyer and university lecturer, Professor of Civil Law, Labour Law and Social Security Law at Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg since 2014. Her research focuses on labour law and social law, with a particular focus on topics such as occupational health and safety, anti-discrimination and rehabilitation law.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Chapter
0:04 – Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit
2:07 – Bullying in the workplace
4:47 – Local conference of the German Association of Labour Courts
6:18 – Research and current cases
10:37 – Legal framework conditions
14:58 – Challenges in practice
17:41 – Legal aspects of bullying
20:42 – Complexity of bullying situations
27:16 – Mediation as an occupational health and safety measure
33:09 – Invitation to the conference in Halle
Summary
In this episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", I deal with a particularly relevant and controversial topic: Bullying in the workplace. Together with Professor Katja Nebe, an expert in the field of labour and social law, we will discuss the many facets of this topic and at the same time prepare for an upcoming Local conference of the German Association of Labour Courts in Halle (21.11.2024) in which we will both make a contribution.
Professor Nebe begins by giving an insight into her work, which deals with psychosocial conflicts in the workplace, both in teaching and in research. She emphasises how important it is not only to look at these issues from a legal perspective, but also to consider the practical effects on those affected. We discuss how unresolved social conflicts can lead to serious health problems, often resulting in long-term illnesses or early retirement.
In the context of the upcoming conference, which will explicitly address the issue of bullying, we will discuss the need to tackle current problems in the world of work directly. Of particular concern is the finding that in Germany, compared to other countries, protection against psychosocial hazards in the workplace is often still inadequate. We shed light on critical points concerning the causes of bullying in the working environment and look at how a lack of legal regulations or inadequate measures can favour this.
Another important aspect that we address is the handling of complaints about bullying. Bullying is often only recognised as such after the event, which considerably limits the legal options available to those affected. The role of the courts in such processes is also addressed, as are the difficulties for those affected in obtaining clear legal protection. This dynamic means that allegations of bullying are often not taken seriously until the situation has escalated significantly.
We also talk about this during our conversation, the importance of comprehensive documentation and data collection on the topic of psychosocial stress is. Professor Nebe points out that we are lagging behind in international comparison and that concrete recommendations for action are urgently needed for companies in order to recognise bullying at an early stage and take countermeasures.
With regard to preventive measures and interventions in the event of bullying, we believe that mediation plays a key role. It can often serve as an effective tool for resolving conflicts and creating a better working environment. It is crucial that the Mediation is not only seen as a preventative measure, but is actively integrated into the company culture in order to avoid bullying from the outset.
Finally, we cordially invite all interested parties to attend the conference on 21 November in Halle/Saale. In this context, various perspectives from science and practice will be presented in order to take a differentiated look at the topic of workplace bullying and develop solutions. It is high time that we take a closer look at this pressing issue and support all those who suffer from the consequences of bullying.
Full transcript
[0:00]And that one then stop also so a Understanding wins, that Mediation one
[0:04]
Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit
[0:03]Occupational safety measure be can. Cordially welcome to the Podcast Good through the Time. The Podcast round at Mediation, Conflict coaching and Organisational consulting. A Podcast from Ingen Zehmer. I am Sascha Walke and welcome you to one new Consequence. And the today Consequence turns itself at a Topic, the in Mediations or in the Conflict management Explosiveness and Actuality has, namely Bullying. Bullying on Workplace. And we want with this Consequence on one Conference point out, on one Local conference of the Germans Association of Labour Courts, the in Hall take place becomes. Since will I equal what in addition say. First of all once welcome I mine Interlocutor and Expert on the Area, Professor Katya Nebe. Cordially welcome. Hello.
[0:53]Hello. Mrs Nebe, You have the Topic at the moment on the Desk. You are there requested been. The become we equal deepen. First of all times, what makes Your Labour out? Where come You with the Topic Bullying in Touch? Who are You? Thank you for the Invitation and I try times short about me to the Topic and mine Touch to the Topic a little what to tell. So I am Labour lawyer and Social lawyer, quasi Lawyer on the Martin Luther University in Hall, teaching there Labour and Social law and am but also in the Research with the Subject areas strong to in progress. And the Topic Bullying or psychosocial Conflicts on Workplace, the is in both legal Sub-areas a relevant Topic. To the one, because it at the Prevention from such Conflict situations or to the Coping from such Conflict situations in the Employment relationship goes. The is then a labour law Topic.
[1:52]And because we but also know, that many People through unresolved social Conflict situations on Workplace to the Example Long-term illnesses experience. With some People goes the so wide, that the to one permanent Retirement
[2:07]
Bullying in the workplace
[2:07]from the Working life leads. And then are we quasi on End the Bar of the Social law so to speak with to the Example Reduced earning capacity pensions. And there are then the Social service provider earlier also in demand, at the Prevention or also the again incoming Working life through Social benefit to support. And the make I also in the Research. And yes, so am I quasi in Teaching and Research with the Themes quite frequently also in the Contact. And when I on these Local conference so to speak references, the there take place becomes, where we both also together then one Contribution perform and You also the organise, then are the mostly Conferences, as far as I the overview, the whole practice orientated are and even not only so to speak in the breastfeed Chamber from Professors on the University in the Ivory tower rolled become, but the whole immediate Impact in the Living environments from Affected parties have. How comes the so to speak for You, that You there whole close on the Practice on it are? Yes, now must I watch out, that I not to long talk.
[3:10]The is one exciting and also one complex Question. So this German Labour Court Association, the By the way in two years be 100th anniversary Anniversary, Oh, now must I superior.
[3:23]So in any case a whole, whole more traditional Association is. The must straight in East Germany also still in the Surface area again a little stronger perceptible be. Therefore have we us also as University made, I am Yes Labour lawyer, am also already long member in this Association, that we more Local meetings organise want. And the make we natural in the Closing ranks with the Labour jurisdiction and before all also with the respective Interest groups on both Pages, speak with Labour unions and employers' organisations. And then come in the best Case the whole current Topics, the in the Working world straight open, the come there to the Language through Lectures from and with Experts, but before all also through one lively Discussion, so that even such Questions if possible early raised and if possible early also with lifelike Tips also perhaps solved become can. I have straight looked up, goes Yes today whole fast, 1893 as Commercial and Merchant Courts Association established and so that so to speak 125 years before the Door standing. When I the still short insert may, we have coming soon 100 years Labour Court Act and there is natural the German Labour Court Association, the but already older is. So therefore are it two Anniversaries quasi at the same time, 125 years, exactly. And this, the take place becomes on 21. November, turns itself at the Topic Bullying.
[4:47]
Local conference of the German Association of Labour Courts
[4:48]Three Contributions become achieved, next to Your and mine comes still the Mrs Doreen Richard from the Medical Association. And we become the Topic from three Pages illuminate. What is so to speak Your Perspective on this Topic Bullying on Workplace? So in one longer Timeline considered is it stop the scientific Interest. With me has also straight one PhD student their Dissertation completed, is now also published. Carina Suray has to the Topic Conflict prevention also through Mediation their Dissertation written.
[5:27]Thereby am I also already longer with the Topic in the Research support deals with. And then came current from the Press one Enquiry, one Assessment to give away to this dramatic Case. The is a more remarkable Case, the itself in Friedrichshafen occurs has, where on End one heavy Conflict situation then one Employee itself the Life taken has. And thereby am I now again whole current with very real Cases, the partly really very dramatic are, deals with. And then have I thought, the would be now one Possibility, in this Format the Local conference this Topic again one Frame to give, at to the one the Affected parties the Possibility of to give, that the Topic visible also through Experts treated becomes, but also perhaps itself invited to
[6:18]
Research and current cases
[6:14]lead, then in the Discussion with concrete Questions the Voice to raise. What me also immediately noticed was, I now as Mediator have in Workplace and Organisational conflicts towards and again with the Topic to do.
[6:31]Mostly to one Time, where still not whole clear is, what has itself because played and like is it because to rate. And so to speak in the In advance one Determination and one then also Consequence search from Bullying processes. Your Perspective comes so to speak so a little from the Reverberation, when clear become is, what is prepared been and the Question, like can it in addition come and what can we also regulate, that the not again the Case is. So, when I right informed am, other Countries have extra in favour Laws created.
[7:07]In Germany leaves one it with the Laws, the we at the moment so have. At least have I not the Impression, that there what in the Aisle is. We have the third Part then with Mrs Richard, the so to speak the Done itself again assessed, also what it for Effects has.
[7:24]As far as I the overview, is it a large Topic, the one not with one Solution somehow edit can. For You, the so to speak one Overview itself in addition procured or procure would like also research, like Large hold You because the Problem? So have we it there with extreme Cases to do, the stop pop up, because them extreme are? Is it the Top one Icebergs? Is it something, what sometimes also from Affected parties named becomes, that it simple a accepted Behaviour is and that one it at all not so scandalised treated in the Practice? How provides itself the for You represent? I extract the Question now also in the Reason taken several Detailed questions. I catch times with data to. So the Dilemma in Germany is, what Yes also from You straight right described been is, that we to the Protection before hazardous to health social Conflict situations on Workplace. So that close I Bullying in, but I wants it not only on the Term reduce, that we there to little Concrete to the Example in the Labour protection law stand have. Before all also in the sub-legal Concretisations, so when now to the Example the Occupational health and safety supervision or the Employer's liability insurance associations, when the now in Vitriebe come and look, like sees it there from with the Occupational health and safety organisation, have we so one Vast quantity on Detailed regulations to the Protection before more physical Health.
[8:43]But little spelt out to the Protection before more psychic Health and before all also to the Protection before psychological Loads. The is not always everything the same, but straight about which we here speak, goes it Yes on End mostly also at psychic Load and psychic Health. Thereby have we also little Data, what now in the Operated in fact, so I says times, the Hazardous substance measurement, the becomes documented And the Measurement from psychosocial Conflict situations, the becomes still long not comprehensive documented, because it in addition stop also little concrete normative Clues gives. And so that come I to the Beginning Your Question. It gives from the International Work organisation whole current from the Year 2019 the ILO Convention 190. And there goes it at the Protection before Harassment and Violence on Workplace and Germany has 2022 in addition one Ratification adopted. But one has said, one needs in the Reason taken hardly more detailed Concretisation in the Law. The is from individual Associations fierce criticised been, from mine View completely to Right. When one itself the Criticism against these legislative Inactivity looks at, then sees man, what actually everything actually done become would have to be. Yes, so the means, You would already the Thesis share, we are there inattentive, whole diplomatic expressed and we are behind in the international Comparison?
[10:11]On each Case. So us missing quasi the Glasses, at psychic Load, so psychic Incorrect utilisation, at the times so to name, Load stress model. The know we in the meantime, think me, whole good in the Operated with the Occupational health and safety officers. And the Whole now again for the concrete Hazard situation psychosocial Load
[10:37]
Legal framework conditions
[10:33]on Workplace apply, the is still to little practised, still to little spelt out. And there hang we really in the international Comparison extreme behind.
[10:43]And therefore am I also cautious, now Figures to name, but I would times say, the Health insurance companies and the Pension insurance institution have Yes the Figures about the Access to premature Pensions, so Reduced earning capacity pensions. And there are in the Moment the psychological Diagnoses so to speak on Place one. And when one now times the Thesis set up, the could also Consequences from unresolved social Conflict situations on Workplace be, then See we there already, that the one important Driving force is, the we somehow what oppose must.
[11:12]Paint apart from from all individual fates. And there would I say, the are the Top of the iceberg. And there is it at each Individual fate dramatic. And I find also, when one says, in the Mass are the little Individual fates, the so bad go out. But each Accidental deaths in the Chemical plant would be relevant. Everyone Traffic fatalities is relevant. And just as must we also Suicide prevention in the Context with Bullying prevent. So me goes it with the Topic also frequently like this, that I rare, not one large Gap, but one huge Jump mentally and emotional also make must between the individual fates, the I directly experience, where I one individual Level control and then whole clear on this Level also all Participants itself heavy withdraw can, untouched to remain. It is dramatic until impactful and on the social Level, on the larger Level so to speak from Organisations, Industries.
[12:13]Not only in the Economy, also in the Administration, that it itself not more so clear represent leaves and not more so clear also adjustable is. Where one also not simple say can, well, we must now so to speak everything calculate and then come so to speak these Reproaches from, what shall one because still everything do? How want we the because still document and handle and Bureaucracy? On it runs a Part beyond. And on the other Page but also whole clear clear assignable is, the would Money save and we must early on Employees or their Situation enter. The can we not so run leave. We have the also in the Occupational safety with physical Injuries get it right, that the Zero in the Year so to speak on Injuries the Goal be must. I think also, exactly what You describe, that the Person in the Coping perhaps also already very more manifest Conflict situation, that there all Involved, also the Professionals.
[13:10]For itself itself natural also strong Loads feel. So the memorise we also with our University everywhere there, where we psychosocial Counselling perform, that one then itself again look must, is one through Supervision and perhaps also through the Quantity the Cases and that one there itself also again for itself Compensations finds. And the other is but so the systemic Approach. And there think I already, that we firstly, we must capture and document. And I make it times concrete on two Points. So what I now tell, is Yes not from me something Invented or Spontaneous Fancy, but it gives international Specifications. And national gave it to the Example the Draft one shortened Anti-stress regulation.
[13:51]The is Unfortunately 2013 there not adopted been. We have natural also scientific Findings. And when I the times short so summarise and from it synthesise, we could capture, where in Operated to the Example Supervisor, so People with Management responsibility, itself a Coaching get. So so to speak at all first in favour sensitised become, like Leadership behaviour itself on the Load, Stress the Employees has an effect. And as long as in one Operation so a Coaching at all not offered becomes or when it offered becomes, not in demand becomes, have we on the Place in the Reason taken one idling Prevention.
[14:32]The is the On. Okay, so alone, that one the documented, where becomes coached, what about turns s’s and becomes the Accepted also, when the Personnel department the offers, the have we not, the would be already times what worth so to speak. I am me safe, that it Companies gives, where the already also systemic good established is, but the is rather rare, at it times whole cautious to say.
[14:58]
Challenges in practice
[14:54]And we know it not, we have none bringing together Figures in addition. Exactly, I think, so can we it here also first stand leave. And the other would be, that one to the Example there, where it at Long-term illnesses goes, at Return-to-serve processes, that one at the latest there also See can, when Persons open lie. With me is the Cause the Permanent or Long-term illness one psychosocial Conflict situation on Workplace. The should actually in one good BEM process, so a Return-to-work process, should the obvious become. And then could one in the Operation more accurate look, have we there one general Cause in one certain Department, with certain Persons, because of certain multicausal Stress factors. And then should one there again with Individual occupational safety measures so to speak have an effect. So I think already, that one good Data acquisition on the operational Level also already us systemic good advance would. And then think me, when the all Responsible also so experience, that then hopefully not always as first Reflex comes, oh God, what comes still in addition.
[15:59]Superior Bureaucracy, but OK, the is a More on Workload for the Responsible, but with good effects, because then the Conflicts perhaps earlier recognised become. And I says times, it is Yes rare a whole more one-sided Course of the conflict, that from one Person only so to speak Assaults go out, but it has often what with Communication to do and that one then also earlier apply can and itself the Conflicts not more so harden. Hey you, the this Podcast listens, forget not, him to Rate and one Feedback to give. Many Thanks to and now goes’s continue.
[16:42]The is a Part mine Points of contact. So like I to the Topic come in the Practice, is rare like this, that someone… Me commissioned and says, we have here one Bullying situation. The means, we have there one bullying Person and we have in, probably two or three heavy leading Victim. Please make You times what. The is Yes not the Practice, in the I so to speak so that in Touch come and the one also so in the Operated finds, but I have frequently the Case.
[17:12]That said, we have there Parties to the conflict, the is indisputable and both throw itself each other Bullying before. The one more, the other less. Clearly but, that, what described becomes.
[17:26]Will under this Facts, when one the times so technical name wants, fall. And we know not, what we do should. Sometimes have I so over-pointed said, Bullying white one always first in the Follow-up
[17:41]
Legal aspects of bullying
[17:36]one such events, when one it then rated has or any Place it assessed has. And the means whole rare but, that the Assessment for all Participants met becomes, but mostly for one Person. Ability we direct still one Point address, the actually also with in the Range of topics here belongs to and there fits Your Description of the very good in addition.
[17:59]That these Valuation from the Hindsight, the is in the Reason taken also the Aggravation for the Affected parties, to the Example judicial Legal protection here to demand. So the Courts say then of course, one can also through provisional Procedure before Court, where it then at quick Process sequences goes, can one faster to one preventive Legal protection come. Then must but the Affected parties natural Relative clear to perform, what now the coveted Protective measure is and must in favour at least one certain Substance to perform. And there memorise we also, the runs in the Case law still whole rare and it is right difficult, there provisional Legal protection to get, because I Yes in the best Case still not say can, I am already whole heavy health-related loaded and it has itself one Accumulation to, say I times, psychological Violent attacks or Degradation is already to register. But in the best Case says man, here finds in the Apron none Prevention instead of and therefore is to fear, that it here to Health injuries comes. And perhaps still a second Point, when I the also still whole serious have.
[19:07]The second Point, whether we it with one Top of the Icebergs to do have or only with few Individual cases. I believe, the become we in the The future still better see. How sees it actually with the Solidarisation or Desolidarisation out? The Cases, the me now so described been are, the show also, like difficult it is for the Individuals, when them namely then, and the is then a System from heavier Bullying, the think me, can I say, when then quasi those, the.
[19:36]This Reveal of the Conflict prevent want, because Yes often also Facts then with to light come. Someone has perhaps but Error made, so Error culture becomes not described, but Error should covered up become and the, the the Error name, become then to Sacrifice from Rejections, Assaults, Denunciations and what white me. So itself Victim from Denunciations. And that one then at the same time but also, the is Part of the Systems in Individual cases, tried, the in solidarity restrained College so to speak to split off, the from, say I times, Victim the Reproaches to move away and on the Page of the, I say now times, Perpetrator to draw. The neutral, at least conservative acting Organisation, the want the Situation preserve, there shall nothing get there, yes. Exactly. And the leads then with the Persons, the itself actually in solidarity behaviour want, because the the first, so personally also perceived State of conscience is. The are itself health-related burdened, because them itself Part of the Conflict become. And for the Person, the so to speak then alone in the Focus stands,
[20:42]
Complexity of bullying situations
[20:39]intensified itself the Load yet, because them so isolated. Yes, and therefore believe I already, that we it here really with the Top of the Icebergs to do have and itself in total in Organisations Labour improve can.
[20:53]When we with Indication and with Protection for all then in such Error situations so more mindful avoid. So straight this Aspect, who there like involved is and like the Interests are, reminds me frequently on so Compliance situations, that simple one high Uncertainty, because high Unfamiliarity is, where to leads the everything? That also itself Things, the clear clear are, the to Track are, the to track are, then not gone become, because one not exactly white, what has it still for one Price and then gives it so to speak these Designation from Perpetrator, Victim, Affected parties and then the Bystanders, the very active become and one whole own Agenda then also have. And I find, the is something, what so to speak the Term Bullying on the first Level not sets out, so one Complexity and so one very complex Situation, with the it at much goes and I say times like this, not unemotional, not only at Health, but there goes it at whole most diverse Interests and that the heavy to map is in the Term Bullying, Because the but something has from, there gives it one Perpetrator and there gives it Victim. And it is Relative unambiguous. So so one klassische…
[22:14]Court, Criminal court situation. And the becomes at least in the Time, where I with this Themes confronted will or with those to do have.
[22:26]Will the the not fair. So there is still to high Dimension on Complexity and it fast in so one reduced, on Guilt and Responsibility reduced Situation to bring, is mostly still not the Time, like one the so to speak in the operational Practice organise wants. The is a Question mark. The is really a high Dimension on Work order