INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“

#245 GddZ

Mediation in construction

Conflicts in the building hut

In conversation with Claudia Horstmann

Architect, teacher and supervising transactional analyst under supervision (PTSTA), Berlin

Small series: Fields of mediation

Contents

Chapter:

0:02 – Introduction to the construction podcast
1:24 – Claudia Horstmann introduces herself
4:52 – Bauhütte and its challenges
9:31 – Communication in the Bauhütte
13:52 – Showing your edge on the construction site
15:52 – Trust and respect in building culture
22:50 – Moderation and mediation in the construction industry
26:49 – Developments in the architecture scene
33:46 – Conclusion and outlook for the future

detailed summary

In this episode, we explore the exciting topic of mediation in the construction industry, an area that requires specialised mediation skills due to its complexity and frequent conflicts. I discuss with Claudia Horstmann, an experienced architect and teaching transactional analyst, whose own in-depth experience on construction sites provides valuable insights into the communication dynamics and conflicts that arise in this environment.

We start with a look at the specific communication situation in the so-called Bauhütte, the central meeting point for all those involved in the construction project. This is where architects, clients, engineers and craftsmen meet and where decisions are made that have a significant impact on both the progress of the construction work and the quality of the project. Claudia talks about her experiences as one of the few women in her position and how she has managed to assert herself in this male-dominated field. Her beginnings in construction, amid great challenges and conflicts, were characterised by a constant confrontation with different personal and professional interests.

A key topic we discuss is the need to show edge - both in setting boundaries and in offering relationships. Claudia explains that passing tests and challenges plays a key role in professional respect and collaboration. It's about positioning yourself as a competent professional as well as respecting and actively contributing to the presence and demands of the other participants. In this context, we also incorporate the principles of transactional analysis, which help us to better understand the psychological games and dynamics that arise in such meetings.

We also look at the role of moderation in construction project meetings and discuss the question of whether and how external moderators could help to defuse conflicts and increase the efficiency of these meetings. Claudia emphasises that adequate preparation and hierarchy definition is important to ensure acceptance and respect for a moderator. We discuss what qualities and skills such a moderator would need to possess in order to operate successfully in the often confrontational atmosphere of a building lodge.

Finally, we reflect on the development of communication culture in the construction industry and the possibility that a mediative or facilitated approach could not only resolve conflicts but also improve collaboration between all parties involved. Claudia shares her current experience as a trainer and coach in organisations and how her architectural roots are evident in her work today. She explains how important it is to consider both the human and the spatial context when working together.

This episode not only offers valuable insights into the world of construction projects and the challenges of mediation, but also demonstrates the importance of communication and understanding different perspectives in an often conflict-laden environment.

full transcript on the episode website.

Complete transcription

(AI-generated)

 

[0:02]
Introduction to the construction podcast
[0:00]So it's somehow showing an edge and an offer of a relationship. And once you've passed that, then you can work together. Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit. The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. A podcast from INKOVEMA. I'm Sascha Weigel and I'd like to welcome you to a new episode. And today's episode will deal with the small series of fields of work of mediation or potential fields of work of mediation. In other words, where mediation skills can potentially be put to good use. And today's topic is broadly the familiar heading of mediation in construction or mediation in construction. Mediation has a long tradition there.
[0:44]Not only characterised by successes, but also by the realisation that this is a difficult field of work for mediators. Today I would like to take you, dear listeners, into a very specific situation, namely the dialogue in the building lodge. After all, this is a highly interesting dialogue situation that is characterised by many different aspects and where communication skills are definitely required. And as I only have rudimentary knowledge in this area, I have invited someone who has not only, I don't want to say grown up there,
[1:24]
Claudia Horstmann introduces herself
[1:22]but who is familiar with this situation. Welcome to my podcast studio, Claudia Horstmann. Hello Sascha, thank you for inviting me. Yes, I had to laugh a bit when you said that, because you really hit the nail on the head, because I grew up on a building site.
[1:40]My parents' house was actually being remodelled when I was born. As a baby, I grew up on a building site, that's true. Maybe that's where the affinity came from that I later worked there.
[1:52]I, on the other hand, decided as a teenager that I wasn't going to move to the construction site that would have taken me even deeper into the Ore Mountains, but I said, no, I'm going the opposite way, I'm not doing it. It's also a topic that I associate with conflict, so to speak. So it's not entirely foreign to me, but like you, I've never been there professionally at the table in the Bauhütte. And we'll take a closer look at that, but first of all perhaps this: when I think of the Bauhütte, I always think of you. And that's why, after many years, we did transactional analysis training together, where I developed this image of Claudia standing in the Bauhütte, her wife, and having to steer her way through it. That was the initial situation. If I pass that over, why don't you describe a bit about who you are? How is it that you came to work on, let's say, the fine art of communication and what that has to do with transactional analysis for you, as a starting point for you and your person.
[2:57]Tell me about yourself. I'm an architect in my original profession and that's why I came to Berlin, because I really wanted to see how East and West were growing together and I was lucky. There were a lot of jobs here at the time and I quickly found myself in the position of project manager for large projects in a well-known office. Large projects, so you can imagine what that actually means. Let me put it this way: the projects were always between 10 and 50 million euros. So really very large projects and I worked there as a site manager and one of the jobs of a site manager is that you don't have to lead the regular Joffixes that take place on construction sites, which are the construction meetings in the construction hut, as you just called them, but you have to take part in them. And you're simply the architect's representative. I did that for many years on a very, very large construction project. It was a large property, a big hotel, plus two car dealerships and 20 residential units. It's quite complex, and I was in charge of it and sat in the construction hut every week, as you put it.
[4:13]Bauhütte, yes exactly, that was a container and it looked like we met there regularly with about 15 people. The composition of the people or our group was such that, of course, the project manager or client representative was there, the architects, all the specialist planners and the foremen, who were important at the time in terms of what was happening on the construction site. So we were a big group and I was usually the only one there.
[4:52]
Bauhütte and its challenges
[4:48]Frau. That was my working life and that's how we met, Sascha. Claudia, you say you came to Berlin to see how the two...
[4:58]German neighbourhoods grow together. When did that happen? I came to Berlin in 1993. On 10 August 1993. It's still very present. It's still very fresh. And with the projects you describe, in terms of volume alone, the Bauhütte is probably just a symbolic term. It probably wasn't just a hut, but a large table with lots of people. Or how is it typically set up, the situation, who is sitting at the table so that we can get an idea of what the communication situation is like?
[5:36]It's a large table, i.e. several tables placed next to each other, and it's usually in a portacabin. In other words, the kind of containers you see everywhere. You meet at 9 o'clock in the morning. The participants, as I just said, are usually the client's representative, project manager, architect, all the specialist planners, i.e. structural engineering, fire protection, building services, surveyors, depending on which construction phase you're in, and of course the interior designer and foreman.
[6:09]From the trades that are currently on the construction site and so on. So we meet regularly once a week to discuss the progress of the construction work and what needs to be done. That's at least ten people. How many can that be? Ten to fifteen people were always involved in this big project that I did. And it's practically the forum where everything that needs to be discussed is put on the table. All problems are addressed there and you don't necessarily have the time to discuss them in peace and quiet, but at best it would be a success if things were calm there. Or how can I imagine who is in charge, who reports? How does that normally work? With such large construction projects, there is usually a general contractor. In other words, these projects are not awarded on a trade-by-trade basis, but by a general contractor. This means that they also sit at the table. This in turn means that trades are, for example, masonry work, carpentry work, tiling work, these are all trades and a general contractor has everything under one roof. He basically says, I'll build you the hut for, let's say, 500,000 and it will be ready on 12 December.
[7:30]That is his contract. So everything is packed underneath, all the works and he is also liable. And the person who said and promised this is usually not sitting at the table. He sits at the table too. At these Joe Fixes, it's always about negotiating the quality in which things are built on the construction site. It is usually the case that the architect specifies a quality for the building based on his details, service description, functional description and so on, and the general contractor usually has a clause in his contract stating that he can build it differently if the quality is equivalent, and this is often the subject of dispute. What is equivalent? Because the architect naturally wants to assert his ideas, his aesthetic sensibility and his convictions. And the general contractor naturally has the goal of making as much profit as possible, i.e. minimising costs, so to speak. And that in itself, if you think about it, is already a source of conflict. It's a clash of professions, art and craft, to put it very, very simply, but it's also a clash of very different craft organisations and organisations that have completely different interests.
[8:54]So one of them wants to build it cheaply, but he has said he will do it to a certain quality. There seems to be room for argument as to what that is. And you worked in this situation, so to speak, and then decided, okay.
[9:07]I have to understand what's going on here, then you decided to do transactional analysis, but that was the reason to say, okay, I have to deal with what's going on here. Yes, exactly. That was actually the reason. So the third strong position is of course the client, who wants both. In other words, as cheap as possible and as good as possible.
[9:31]
Communication in the Bauhütte
[9:28]These parties sit around the table. Then there are the craftsmen, who also have their own idea of how something should be built. That takes a long time. A Jeffix always took eight hours. Eight hours? Yes, eight hours. Every week.
[9:43]The first thing I would have thought is that they don't have the time or to say, I have to build something too, so I can't sit down here right now. But it really seems to be necessary. It is necessary. So the people gathered there are more the planners, in other words the people who work in their heads, so to speak. But it is necessary in order to discuss all the things that arise in the various construction phases of such a large construction project. And usually the client's representative or the project manager is in charge. What I experienced was that there were very, very many conflicts. Regardless of my position, which was special because I was a young woman and the only woman on the construction site. There were a lot of conflicts, which I would say from today's perspective. As our trainer Thorsten Gek once said? The psychological games fly low or flew low. So that means, if you take the simplest thing now in the drama triangle of pursuer rescuing victim, the meetings were very much conducted from the pursuer role.
[10:44]This is where you have to put your foot down, this is where people have to be organised. Schuss von Buch determines the direction. In other words, all the pedagogical educational measures that are commonly used in the Bauhütte can be experienced there. At the time, I decided to do transactional analysis for two reasons. I was still very young when I took it on and I thought, okay, so you didn't learn any leadership skills during your studies, how to lead a team, how to hold meetings like this and so on, and then I went on a search and so on. I found transactional analysis and as I'm a conscientious person, I wasn't satisfied with a three-week weekend training course, but started with the basic skills right away. I must say that I then found a passion for it, because today I am a transactional analyst who teaches, and not without reason, because I was simply very enthusiastic about it. And nevertheless, it really, really helped me on the construction site back then because I understood, or understood more and more through my own supervisions that I did during my training, what actually happens in these meetings. Because what I realised even without this whole TA background was that I thought, well, you could actually do them in four hours, then the essentials have been said.
[12:11]That is generally the clichéd impression when you come to a foreign culture. I would say here, in a male culture seen with the eyes of a woman or assessed with the ears of a woman. Okay, that could be more effective. You could leave a few things out, but they do seem important. At least for the locals there. Now it's a situation where I think you can say that you've gone through the hard school, the hard school of communication, and you've been able to learn transactional analysis practically with good data. What is that? The essential things you need to know when you get into a situation like this as a participant, in other words, if you want to survive. I think that this is most likely different whether you are a woman or a man. But what is the same for both is that you are tested. So that's something you have to be prepared for on the construction site.
[13:11]So I think people always test other people. But on the construction site, things are a bit tougher, the tests that are carried out there. That's the one thing you have to be prepared for and you have to pass. As the saying goes, you have to show an edge. And the other point is that you have to be curious about this culture, which is different. So showing edge doesn't mean hiding behind it, but it is both at the same time, both demarcation and an offer of relationship. Yes, that's how it is. That's kind of how it is when you pass this test,
[13:52]
Showing your edge on the construction site
[13:51]you also get respect. Maybe just to give an example to make it clearer, as an architect you also have to make ceiling mirrors, so how are the lamps organised, which lamps are there and so on. At the very least, you check what the technician is doing. I had done all that on a building site and told him that we had to do it this way and that way, there's no other way. At the construction meeting on the building site, this building technician presented exactly this plan again and I only looked at it for three seconds and saw that he hadn't incorporated the changes that I had dictated into his pen into his plan, so to speak, and then I told him that we had discussed it differently, these lamps don't go in there, other lamps have to go in there and his comment was, shit, she's noticed.
[14:41]In front of everyone, audible to everyone, that was also a proxy test, so to speak. It was in front of everyone, it was audible and I just thought, my God, how can you be so stupid. But well, I didn't say anything, I just said, yes, I've noticed, it won't be accepted, do it again. But from then on I had respect. That's such a hard edge. So that wasn't particularly harsh. If I hadn't said anything, I would have kept getting into trouble with him because he would have always tried to take me by surprise or not do things that were unpleasant for him or perhaps cost me money.
[15:20]Why didn't you just say that he had lost my trust? Well, in other contexts, such actions are the reason for conflicts of abuse of trust and I can no longer trust him. He said A and he does B and that seems to be... like the starting point for a good working relationship. I've experienced that several times. I've actually been tested by every company on the construction site. Exactly, you've got it right. So it's kind of showing an edge and offering a relationship.
[15:52]
Trust and respect in building culture
[15:49]And if you pass that, then you can work together. If not, then you have a hard time. But what explanation do you have for the fact that this has a completely different effect and develops differently than in other contexts, which are probably not unknown to you today as a counsellor, where a situation like this is still described 20 years later as the starting point for conflicts because he abused trust. You may not have trusted that he would do it that way the first time, but you just had to recognise it. In other situations, other professions and organisations, this is the end of a good working relationship.
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[16:52]Yes, that's right. I took it differently because I tried to put myself in the craftsmen's shoes. They have a completely different reality of life to us. And if I had come and said that they had betrayed my trust, then he would probably have said, what kind of sensitive bimbo is she or something like that. You don't use terms like that, which are also emotional, on the construction site. That's not masculine. The fact that I managed to do it successfully in the end was helped by the TA, the okay-okay attitude in the sense that I tried to put myself in the other person's shoes, in this case the craftsmen. I think that was the point. So I think that the issue of trust is also important from the other side, as it is in other contexts too, so where things are rough, it's usually the case that you can rely on each other and you have to know whether the other person has what it takes, whether they know their trade, whether they have a clue, and the only way to do that is to test them. And when in doubt, you're also prepared to let things fall apart again. So now, it's kind of difficult when, let's say, something is finished on the construction site, but it's made incorrectly and you then have to give the instruction to have it torn down. That's difficult, so it takes courage and at the same time it shows respect, you have to stand up for your side.
[18:20]And that's just this test, because in case of doubt, the craftsmen can also rely on the fact that I stand for good quality construction. And if they work for me as an architect and I do a good job, I deliver good quality, they also have an advantage because they have a good reputation as a company. So what did you gain from the TA? Did it help you to understand or overcome the situation? Sometimes you get through things without being able to name them. It started with the fact that I wasn't recognised a lot, that I got a lot of aggression, that I wasn't respected at first. I didn't know how to deal with that at all. Of course, I also thought it was down to me. I didn't have enough expertise. I was also young, a young architect with only a few years of professional experience. You initially relate it to yourself and through supervision in transactional analysis, I realised that it had to do with many other things that had happened.
[19:26]For example, the dynamic that arises in a group like this. I've already talked about this chasing dynamic, which was quite typical. Then there was this dynamic that, let's just say, the men also had to shine in front of each other.
[19:41]So there's always this saying, I'll just put it this way, who has the longest? That was a typical game that took place. As a woman, you stand in front of it and think, oh God, of course I can't keep up here at first and I didn't really understand it either and I really understood through the supervision that this is a dynamic of its own in which I had no place and didn't want to. I learnt to assert myself differently. Then, of course, there was also the role conflict. I was in my mid to late 30s and the men I was dealing with were at least 15 to 20 years older than me. They also had a different image of women's roles. They simply couldn't imagine a qualified young woman sitting there talking to them about technical details on the construction site because their wives were only allowed to choose the colour of the carpet. And I simply realised all of this through the supervision sessions in transactional analysis and it helped me to find my place and also to find ways to assert myself. Then we both look at the situation with counsellor's eyes, so to speak, because despite all the explainability of the culture of conversation and the need for it to work together.
[20:55]Maybe there's really something to be said for that too, it can be done in four hours and probably in less time. Conflicts and winner-loser communication. In this respect, you could be of the opinion that moderation or mediation skills from someone who doesn't have a direct stake in it, but who can lead it in a neutral and committed manner, wouldn't be the worst idea.
[21:19]And yet there are few things I can imagine or visualise more easily than someone actually moderating such a building lodge. In all your years as an architect, have you ever come across such a moderator? No, the moderator was the project developer or client representative, they weren't trained for it. You could tell that because it was more about finding the culprits than trying to understand. It's more about meeting deadlines. A construction site always means incredibly high pressure to meet deadlines. And if someone didn't manage to do that, putting them under pressure and blaming them also led to a lot of conflict. And I imagine that if someone was trained.
[22:10]So to carry out moderations, even with this background knowledge, that this would definitely work in a shorter time. I'm convinced of that, yes. And I think there is experience from other areas. I discussed similarly large, complex software development projects with a colleague here, Jörg Schneider-Protmann. Hospitals are also familiar with such demanding, difficult discussions. This is also sometimes the case with works councils or in management, who have had good experiences with moderation. It's like a Bauhütten-Schuhfix,
[22:50]
Moderation and mediation in the construction industry
[22:44]There really is a lot of money involved, so it can't really be down to money. Perhaps a different approach to the question of what it would take.
[22:55]What would you have to be prepared for? If you actually had to act as an external moderator for the general contractor or the person who initiated the project in the first place, if you said yes too quickly, for example, I'll do it. He would also be tested, wouldn't he? So what would they have to bring to the table?
[23:19]First rule on the construction site, never say yes straight away. No matter what you are asked to do, never say yes straight away. Always say, I'm not sleeping on it yet. Oh yes, so far too. Yes, that's really the case, because there are often interests behind why you have to do something very quickly. You might not realise that the second you sit at the table. And what a rat's tail that entails. That's why it's always good to say, I need a moment or I'll call you tomorrow. That's the first rule. Exactly. And someone who would do the moderation would first have to be appointed by the client, or I think that would have to be negotiated by the client or into the general contractor agreement.
[24:08]So that he has this expertise from the outset, that he is on the same level as the project manager or client representative. That would be important because there is a lot of hierarchy on the construction site. You would have to place him right at the top of the hierarchy, so to speak, then I think he would have more respect. And then, I think, it would also be the case that he would be tested, yes. So he also has to have what we call field expertise. He would have to have field expertise. These tests are always designed in such a way that you have to stand your ground in a particularly difficult situation and once you've done that, you're Anneg. If you've asserted yourself, that's the point, to assert yourself. This also means that it is difficult for the moderator to back down, which is common practice in other situations. It's not up to me to decide. I also don't need to know what is right or wrong here on the site, but my job is to lead them to decisions in an efficient way. That would simply not be accepted. Is that what you mean? I don't think that would be accepted, no.
[25:19]My idea is that the moderator would probably have to work very closely with the project manager and that the project manager makes the decisions. So that would probably also explain why this is not common practice, because you would practically have an additional person who has to be familiar with the project, whether they have the sole task of organising the construction meeting efficiently. I'm currently thinking about how that could work. It would probably be to split the competences of the project manager and the moderator so that the competences are distributed. That might work. In other words, when it comes to content, the project manager would do that and, let's say, the process-related things, such as how a construction meeting is managed, would be done by the moderator.
[26:10]Was that ever an issue for you? I mean, you went out there as an architect and said, I'm not going to do that any more because you were more interested in something else. Maybe it wasn't so bad as an architect. But that it would become a field of work for you because you know from experience what's important there. Yes, definitely. It's just very difficult to turn that into reality. Because, as you say, in principle I would have to generate my own professional field myself, because it's like other problems.
[26:49]
Developments in the architecture scene
[26:44]And organisations are not automatically available on the construction site. That's still the case now, isn't it? Do you have the impression that something has developed in this respect in recent years? In other organisations, we are seeing more and more that difficult discussions are accompanied by moderation, that organisations are developing internal moderation teams, small task forces of almost two or three that can be requested. This is probably not yet the case in large organisations. No, it is generally said that architects are resistant to counselling.
[27:20]That's what they say about lawyers. I was just about to say that there are special professional groups, it's the same with teachers. So that's why I like it a bit. I do think that a rethink is taking place in large architectural firms that also work across different trades. So they have building services engineers and structural engineers and so on. In other words, a lot has developed in the area of communication, which is thankfully supported by the fact that they have their own moderation teams, for example, or that there are also many organisations that give their employees coaching or do things like that. So these offices are more open to it, in any case. And I have to say that I very much welcome that, because I think architectural firms can learn a lot from it and learn from it in order to realise their projects more effectively and also more cost-effectively, especially planning offices. So that's the point that really surprises me the most, because the costs.
[28:24]The casseroles, which are already well known outside of the normal schedule and you expect from the outset that all this will not fit and that a solution will be offered relatively cheaply with good experience in other areas, but hardly possible. At least in my perception, it is hardly ever realised. I think perhaps one or two listeners will be appalled that we don't know that there are definitely such developments in construction. In that case, please feel free to provide feedback. But I personally haven't come across it yet. I haven't heard anything about it either. That is also a question mark for me as to why this is actually the case. I have found an explanation for myself, which of course may not be all-encompassing or valid for everyone, certainly not. One explanation would be.
[29:14]Architecture, the way I learnt it, was one-person-centred. So there was always the architect, let's say, less the architects, let's say the architect with the 6B pen, as soon as he gets up and goes to bed, he's always on the go. So you're always an architect, so to speak, sketching in the evening with a glass of red wine and the 6B pen and so on. What is the 6B pencil? Is that the unit for the pencil? How hard is it? Yes, it's a pencil, it's very soft and you sketch rather roughly. These are the kind of images you have. But nevertheless, I grew up with these pictures, very self-centred actually, focused on the person and that's also the case with great architects. Norman Foster, although there is a huge machine behind it.
[30:04]The whole thing has also changed, the entire professional culture has changed. But it comes from this person-centredness and when we talk about organisations now, it is simply a different type of organisation, of work, and it is a different understanding of work. So we sometimes talk about the organisational script that shapes an organisation. You can imagine that if there is a dominant architect, they naturally shape an organisation. And everyone works towards her and tries to find out what she means. Can they allow themselves to be misunderstood? And the person is also, at least by proxy, at the discussion table in the building lodge?
[30:47]So my boss, he was only in Berlin every fortnight, his office was in Munich, but he also came to the construction site, yes of course. That was always special, of course, when he said something about it. Yes, I can also imagine that this construction project does not have an organisational character, but remains a project and that for this short time, the role of a knowledgeable moderator is not established. As I said, my colleague Jörg Schneider-Protmann, who has accompanied software projects, also said that these are multi-year projects where a wide variety of professions come together.
[31:25]They have to remain in constant dialogue in order to make changes and adjustments. So they also have a "Bauhütten" meeting, if you like. And he was also tasked with simply providing support regardless of the conflict issue and bringing the person to the table because you know that conflicts will arise. So it's structured in a very similar way, but with other professional groups and a different object, a different product is being built. And that's where a figure like this emerged, who then also said that this is deal mediation, so to speak, mediation without conflict, but mediation based on a high probability of conflict. You could say that you can assume 100 per cent that there will be conflicts on the construction site. Therefore, I could imagine that if such a person is involved from the outset in these Geofix meetings, it would have a major impact. Let's leave it at that. I know from the BM at the Federal Mediation Association that they also have their own specialist group, Mediation in Construction. Perhaps when one or two people here have heard that, we can pick up on it again, but perhaps for the moment, let's stick with it. You have less to do with it today. What are you doing these days with your counselling qualification, so to speak? What contexts do you work in?
[32:45]I work much actually in Company. So I am Trainer and go in The company and work with the People. Then for one Day or for two Days to certain Topics. Naturally also Conflict, but much also Communication and solution-orientated. The is actually my Mainstay. Then have I here mine Practice Human and Room, there have I the so a little for me extended, so this Term, I am not only teaching Transactional analyst, am I natural also, that I the pass on, the Teaching, the makes me large Joy, but I have simple this Term Human and Room taken, so because I the People even not only on itself consider as Individual, but in his Room, in his Organisation, so the systemic Point of view with added have, because I find, that it one very large Influence has and one the People not only on itself view can,
[33:46]
Conclusion and outlook for the future
[33:43]so as individual Person, but the other plays always still so that pure. And there make I then Coaching sessions, Consultations and so continue. So there is also the Architectural root clearly, Rooms design, Rooms to the Disposition place.
[33:55]Rooms to the Disposition place, exactly. And I have me thought, the refers to itself Yes not only on the outside Rooms, but the refers to itself even also on Interiors. Simple Place give, Place to the Disposition place and Possibilities pray. Claudia, many Thanks to for the Conversation, for the Insights and Insights in one, find me, whole specific, but whole human Conversation situation, the their The challenges ready holds. And the is also clear become, the their Joy insists hold. So it makes also Fun, is not only a Shark tank, but the is also with much Joy and also with much good Feedback, when it succeeds. Yes, natural is the like this. Man must itself a little on it get involved, the right, but the makes Fun, the makes Joy. The is natural especially as Architect, but this Feeling, that that, what one itself planned has, Suddenly the stands, in 3D and one can there itself go through, like through his own World of thought to Go and itself itself check, like is the with the Proportions, have I me the right thought and true the everything and like this. I believe, the is so like Having children, I know none other Feeling. Exactly, yes.
[35:09]Okay, yes. Yes, because you are in yours Head originated and it stands there suddenly. You can there inside go round. The is already one very special thing. Many Thanks to, Claudia. Good Time for you. Good Time for you. Ciao. Claudia Horstmann, teaching Transactional analyst, Trainer and Coach, in the Farm of origin Architect and I could with her the Conversation situation, the more challenging Conversation situation Jour fixed on the Building site discuss. The is one whole special Challenge, first right, when one there the Order has, the Conversation to lead, to lead or even if necessary exceptionally even also as Moderator or Moderator there active and effective to be. That the very rare is, has his Reasons, that the necessary is.
[36:04]Or necessary would be, but also. And what the mean would, when this Field of work for Moderators, Mediators provided become would, the is clear become. Claudia has Insights given, on what one itself summarised make must, that one on each Case tested becomes, offensive and official, and that the good Reasons also has and these Persons then also the not nasty take must. The is one whole own Conflict or Culture of dialogue and on the itself set, yes, the Craft also from Mediators and Consultants is. When you these Episode please has and the Podcast you generally appeals, then snap you but now still yours Smartphone and leave a Feedback and one Star rating. The is actually very Helpful for us here from Inko Fema, the this Podcast play out, each week in addition one Episode publish and the Whole you free of charge to the Disposition place. The would be so and is actually very helpful, so that the Podcast Distribution finds and also other interested Listener him find. Many Thanks to in favour. I remain with best Wishes. Come good through the Time. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes.