INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
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Conflicts between works council committees
Conflict actor works council. Part 2
In conversation with lawyer Antje Burmester
Antje BurmesterLawyer, specialist in labour law, mediator (Viadrina Frankfurt); expert in collective labour law conflicts.
Small series: Works council as a conflict actor
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Contents
Chapter:
0:06 – Introduction to works council conflicts
1:13 – Structure of the works council committees
3:38 –Understanding the differences between the committees
7:32 – Conflicts between works councils
10:42 – Focus on the Group Works Council
13:38 – Problems with internal communication
16:47 – Technological challenges in the works council
22:51 – Legal disputes between committees
28:49 – Mediation approaches in works council conflicts
33:34 – Conclusion and outlook for further topics
Summary of content
In today's episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", I set together with my colleague lawyer Antje Burmester the small row about the Works council as a conflict actor continued. This episode is the second part of our series in which we shed light on the complex potential for conflict between works council committees. In the first part, we already addressed the fundamental lines of conflict that arise when committees work together. Today the Focus on the tensions between the various works council committees within an organisation.
We start with a thorough clarification of the various committee structures within a company. Antje explains the differences between the local works council, the general works council and the group works council, and we discuss the legal framework that governs the formation of these bodies. Whilst we define the different functions and responsibilities, it quickly becomes clear that this structure can give rise to conflicts. Particularly when it comes to co-determination rights, there are always conflicts of competence between the committees, which can lead to tensions.
Antje shares her practical experience of how conflicts within works council committees can often be seen as conflicts of attitude. We discuss how the different interests of the committees and the associated emotional factors play a significant role. In particular, the introduction of new technologies and the associated challenges show how important it is to have a good understanding of the technological and legal aspects in order to promote dialogue between the committees.
We also reflect on the communication challenges that arise from the different perspectives and competences. I bring in my own experience as a facilitator and counsellor and illustrate how important it is for all parties to understand each other's perspectives in order to ultimately reach a solution. This requires a high level of sensitivity to the needs and concerns of all parties involved, and it is often helpful to hold informal discussions outside the formal setting in order to facilitate constructive dialogue.
A central theme of this episode is the question of the extent to which mediation can be used effectively in conflicts between works council committees. We all agree that there is often a lack of willingness to utilise external support. Instead, disputes usually take place internally and informally, which has a significant influence on the dynamics of conflict resolution. Antje emphasises that conflict handling is characterised by internal familiarity, which often excludes external mediators.
Finally, we take stock of the findings of the episode and announce that in the next part we will deal with the conflicts between works council committees and employer representatives. It will be exciting to see how the dynamic between these two roles develops and what conflict resolution strategies result from this.
Complete transcription
[0:00]I get such a conflict, which is not just a conflict of competence,
[0:06]
Introduction to works council conflicts
[0:05]but which is an attitude conflict. I can only get to grips with it if I actually try to explain myself well. Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit. The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. A podcast from INKOVEMA. I'm Sascha Weigel and I'd like to welcome you to a new episode. And today we're continuing the second part of our little series, the works council as a conflict actor. We've already recorded the first episode and we're joined by my colleague, lawyer Antje Burmeister, who is back here in the podcast studio.
[1:13]
Structure of the works council committees
[1:14]Antje, in the first part, we talked about conflicts within committees and highlighted the many lines of conflict that exist within committees and that are now also becoming increasingly pressing, for example generational conflicts and digitalisation. Today, in the second part, we want to look at the potential for conflict between works council committees. And what that means exactly and a bit of a map of works council committees is necessary in order to be able to categorise this somehow. So it will probably be a bit structural at the beginning. Before we get into that, Antje, how are you? What are you doing at the moment?
[2:00]Thank you, I'm fine. I'm also involved in a lot of disputes in works council conflicts, but not internal conflicts, as is often the case in conflicts with employers. Parts of the company are to be outsourced and this is often the cause of conflict because, as a works council, you naturally have the need to send the people who are to go on the journey with you in the best possible way. And the employer often sees things differently and says, why, we're just sorting things out, nothing else is happening. And that's what I'll be focusing on later today. And we'll look at these lines of conflict in the third part.
[2:43]Because these are the issues that are generally always immediately associated when it comes to works councils and conflicts with the employer, and that is why they were created, to bundle, structure and organise these conflicts between employees and employers. This is what works constitution law was built for, with the works council as a body. But as there can be several bodies in a company, there are of course conflicts there too. And we want to take a closer look at this today. Perhaps we'll start with this topic. There are several committees within a company or organisation. What do you need to know, quite fundamentally, and that is legal knowledge? Antje, what is necessary? Well, I think you come across different terms,
[3:38]
Understanding the differences between the committees
[3:34]when talking about works councils in a company structure. Sometimes people talk about works councils, sometimes about general works councils and sometimes about group works councils. You have to understand that these are completely different bodies and interpret the terms correctly. The works council is actually the local works council, which is elected by the employees of the local company. The general works council is the body of the works councils that the works councils themselves form at company level.
[4:11]This means that if a company has several sister companies, i.e. several locations, the formation of such a general works council at company level is even mandatory. In other words, the works councils would be in breach of their duties under the Works Constitution Act if they did not form a central works council. I have a bit of a question there, so to speak, to get the audience's understanding. When you talk about locations, do you also mean a geographical location? In other words, as you imagine, there's a building or a site, people go there and then a site works council is elected there. Or can these also be different buildings, different facilities within a city, for example?
[4:58]That can also be the case, but that would be the exception. The Works Constitution Act regulates relatively clearly what a company is as an independent organisational unit. And it says that if there are still small scattered companies, subsidiary companies, then under certain conditions they are assigned to this main company. But I think the picture you have in mind is that there may be a regional bus company that has one operating location, if I assume Cologne conditions, at Cologne's main railway station and there is another operating location outside Cologne in a suburban district, then these would be two different companies, even if they are perhaps not so far apart.
[5:51]As a rule, that is the case. There are exceptions, and even then there are terrible disputes. However, this is a dispute that is more often fought with the employer than between the works councils themselves. In other words, it doesn't primarily depend on the geographical location. So it may well be that there are drivers with staff and management in one city. The workshop is outside Cologne, where the buses are built, repaired and parked. And then there may also be an IT unit, which may be housed in a coworking space somewhere else entirely. And that is still a company and they would then elect a works council if it is organisationally one unit. Right, exactly. If that's not the case, then we have a company with two sites and the need to have two committees when works councils are elected.
[6:48]Right, exactly. However, this is at the initiative of the employees. It may be that a works council is actually elected in one company. But it can also be the case that in another company the initiative is not taken, that no trade union is supported. Naturally, the employer is often not that interested. And then we have a company that has no works council. And it's not at all unusual. There are many companies, even large ones, that have a correspondingly large number of sites, plant locations and then a correspondingly large number of works councils as site works councils. And these site works councils join together to form a general works council.
[7:32]
Conflicts between works councils
[7:33]Exactly. Is that a duty? And what is the intention of the law when it imposes this obligation and thus institutionalises the central works council? There are certain co-determination rights that the legislator assigns to the central works council in the Works Constitution Act. This is very clearly regulated, which does not mean that it is not a source of conflict between the works councils. You can imagine that some matters would like to be dealt with by the local works councils alone. However, the distribution of responsibilities under the Works Constitution Act stipulates that the general works council is responsible for matters under certain conditions. In other words, whenever more than one company is affected and the matter can only be regulated at company level, as the law states. And you need to know a bit about what that actually means. And then we come to these lines of conflict, so to speak, which can now be roughly defined under the heading of conflicting competences. So who can talk to the employer about what?
[8:52]Right, exactly. From the employer's point of view, it's sometimes not so easy to think about. Who do I talk to now? Because the employer may also have a lot of favourites because he says it's easier with the general works council or with the local works council, with the one from A instead of the one from B. In other words, it's a very exciting field. In other words, it's a very exciting field. And so tactical skirmishes, negotiation issues and then how to pack the issues into regulations has an impact or is conditional, so to speak, on which works council is now legally competent to do so, i.e. has the responsibility, so to speak. Exactly. Then we have already explained this area a little, so to speak, and then there is the so-called group works council, if the company is part of a group.
[9:45]That's something special again. Quite right. That's what it means. Surprisingly, the legislator has not made it compulsory to set up a group works council, but has said that you can set up a group works council or even an individual works council if it is a large company. So it's not a must, but an option. It is also far from being the rule to actually form a group works council wherever one could be formed. Because even there, the general works council, at least in its conception, or sometimes individual works councils in their conception, must relinquish power. So I'm coming at this from the side, because it seems to me that the relationship between the group works council and the general or
[10:42]
Focus on the Group Works Council
[10:39]Site works councils are different from general works councils. I can't fully explain this from a legal point of view, so to speak, except to say that it is voluntary to form this group works council and that there are consequences if you do so.
[10:58]If the Group Works Council exists, then certain matters must be regulated at Group level for the General Works Council under the same conditions as I have just briefly outlined. This plays a major role in practice for all IT, software and, in future, AI issues. Yes, these should generally be regulated at group level. And why is that? Firstly, they apply to everyone, so I was a little hesitant to say everyone, but to many, yes, so at least to several, so to speak. And secondly, technically they can usually only be standardised across the group because there is one source, so to speak, that processes the data. In this respect, there are already mandatory technical requirements from the manufacturers, for example at Microsoft this is called a tenant. A group is a tenant and in this respect a sub-unit such as individual companies or individual businesses will not be taken into account at all. And works constitution law must bow to this technically compelling aspect at this point, whether the parties involved like it or not. If it is company-specific or
[12:22]If this software is to be used throughout the Group, then the Group Works Council is also responsible for regulating this issue. I would like to ask one more point about the location of the Group Works Council. Was it the case that several site works councils then form a general works council and therefore also delegate functionaries from the works councils to the general works council? Or is it also the case for delegation to the group works council that there are then several general works councils, which then form the pyramid to the group works council, so to speak? Or can a group works council be formed in addition to a general works council?
[13:06]A general works council alone would not be enough, because I don't have the second unit, but either another general works council or another works council. So let's imagine a works council of a large company or a large unit, I should say, that doesn't have several locations and then a group works council would have to be formed together with this unit.
[13:38]
Problems with internal communication
[13:31]Yes, so it takes two players, so to speak, to create your Group Works Council. And this also raises questions of competence, which can lead to conflicts of competence within the committees.
[13:48]Exactly. Between the committees, to maintain linguistic accuracy. Anja, what experience have you had with conflicts between the committees of the same company? I have found that the view of the law often does not correspond to the view of those directly affected. The closer the circumstance is to me, the more I have the desire to shape this circumstance myself. Let's take an example that usually remains at local level.
[14:27]When I work in shifts. And so shift work, shift issues, these are of course applied at local level and are also dealt with there. That would be left to the local works council. Yes, it would be completely undisputed that this is the case. But I wanted to illustrate that the conflicts arise where the impact of a matter is very close to me, but despite being the affected works council, I have to hand over the regulation of this matter to another body, i.e. to the general works council or perhaps also to the group works council. In my past experience with works councils, especially with group and general works councils, I have seen the issue of technology and software in particular.
[15:19]Absolutely. When software is introduced, the people involved are directly affected, they really realise that they are getting new technologies, that they are supposed to use new software and at the same time the regulations and what is behind it, more literally, this metaphor behind the software, then in the hardware, what is happening there, that they no longer have it in their hands. And this has often led to conflicts between these bodies.
[15:50]Absolutely. And there are also very different approaches to precisely this software topic. There are people who are very open to the topic and have a very low threshold in their perception of whether and to what extent there are risks associated with it. And there are other people who are very sensitive and say that I want my data, and we are talking about employee data here, i.e. my performance data, when am I online, when am I offline, how often do I take a break, do I use several devices in addition to my actual device, who are sensitive about this and also say that I don't like the fact that I am so transparent here. So you can see that this is a very personal issue, but one that is actually dealt with at an overarching level, be it the General Works Council or the Group Works Council,
SE
[16:47]
Technological challenges in the works council
[16:41]must also be dealt with across the board due to this technically mandatory organisation. This brings up a lot of empirical values for me that are important in the strategic debate between the committees. Namely, that the site works council, so to speak, was almost a cliché with these two or three committees that I have accompanied more intensively in the past.
[17:07]That they expressed precisely these reservations and preferred not to allow any changes where they didn't have a clear view. Not to mention the fact that they were prepared to hand this over to others and the Group works councils, who actually simply saw a greater need to allow new technologies and approached these concerns differently.
[17:34]And that was not easy to mediate between the committees. I can well understand that. And in practice, we often have to deal with the fact that we encounter these committees from different perspectives as external parties.
[17:49]So I often take on the role of legal advisor, who is then responsible for labour law issues. But very often I have an IT expert at my side. And that's where it's very important that you work well together, because I can only get to grips with a conflict like this, which is not just a conflict of expertise but a conflict of attitudes, if I actually try to explain myself well. And labour law can be explained quite quickly, whereas IT technology is much more difficult to explain and is also much more difficult because it has to tie in precisely with values and sensitivities. But this ability to translate, this ability to communicate, especially when it comes to IT topics, is incredibly important. I can also confirm that. I have often been involved in these issues as a moderator and strategy consultant, so to speak, and have therefore often been entrusted with mediation work between the committees. And that always worked, sometimes better, sometimes less well. So that's quite commonplace. But what often crossed my mind was something I never experienced myself, but perhaps you have.
[19:12]Since works councils can seek legal advice independently, it is conceivable and legally possible for committees to enter into legal disputes with each other.
[19:28]And a legal dispute between committees, so to speak. I've never experienced that. Oh yes, of course, that does happen. So there are definitely disputes between the bodies, some of which are actually fought out in labour court proceedings. In some cases, this goes through several instances, and there are also Federal Labour Court rulings on this, for example, where the General Works Council says to the Group Works Council that you are simply not making full use of your co-determination rights. You have to be much more sensitive about this. And that is why we believe that the issue is not fully and sufficiently covered by the regulation that has now been concluded. And that is then attacked. Yes, we're already at the highest level of escalation as far as external conflict resolution by the labour court or its instances is concerned. But that is quite often the case. And we simply have a practical issue there. The works councils are, to use a nice legal term, an assetless subject.
[20:33]This means that they don't have any money themselves and none of the works councils should, for God's sake, take any of their own money into their own hands, but are reliant on the employer to clarify the costs. That's how it works for you as a strategic advisor by bringing in external expertise, just as it does for me as a lawyer. And it depends on the key word, as the Works Constitution Act says, in Section 80 (3) on the key word necessity. And that brings us quickly to the point. In the right place. A world opens up under this term. Exactly, in the right place. It's in the right place. Your advice, my advice, the IT expert's advice. But which is the right place? In case of doubt, it is the body responsible by law. And that brings us to the end of this topic. Unless, of course, we have an open-minded employer. We have an employer who understands the potential for conflict behind this issue. And who says, okay, I can only solve this if I also give the committee, which I see as being behind, the appropriate expertise. But quite honestly, in practice this is a clear exception.
[21:57]Hey, you who listen to this podcast, don't forget to rate it and give feedback. Thank you very much and now let’s move on. Yeah, so that's a question that can't be calculated. So the answer is not clearly calculable. And that means everyone can argue about what they think is necessary. So here you can argue about who is authorised to co-decide on the issue with the employer. And I didn't realise that, or rather I never experienced it, because the committees themselves were so closely interwoven, but also strategically didn't want to let themselves be, let's say, so torn apart in court that it still had enough power to be negotiated.
[22:51]
Legal disputes between committees
[22:51]So these were negotiation talks between the individual representatives. And they are also linked in terms of personnel. In other words, a General Works Council member is also a member and delegate of the Group Works Council. The companies I have worked with have always paid attention to this. I think you mean that they listened to these people with particular sensitivity, don't you? Yes, and I have to make sure I'm not remembering this wrong, but it was often the case that those who were on the General Works Council were also on the Group Works Council. Exactly, so the General Works Council delegates to the General Works Council in the same way as the local works councils, the General Works Council delegates to the Group Works Council. And of course, this is done by election in the General Works Council committee. And of course, experienced works council members are usually delegated. Experienced works councillors, I think, in the sense that they not only know the business of the works council well, but also that they have already gained good experience and, ultimately, that they are also experienced in conflicts. This means that you are the right person and the right contact person in the Group Works Council for this kind of strategic conflict resolution approach, which then comes to you in your role as strategic advisor or to me in my role as legal advisor.
[24:18]That, at least to give you a rough idea, the conflicts were not so much between the General Works Council and the Group Works Council, but the different opinions were primarily between the site works councils and the Group works councils. And the General Works Council naturally had a bit of a mediating role. But that meant that the site works councils, because they were always the committees that made decisions, were also stronger in their orientation. So the chairmen of the site works councils had to listen closely to their colleagues on the council when they acted on the Group Works Council. So I always found that, despite all the differences and also the heated nature of the conflict management, these were negotiation talks, mediation talks, which were not yet as formalised as they are now in court.
[25:13]Was this complex field of, we have different opinions here. We have to consider our employees, the workforce. We have to consider the employer, who we will also have to deal with later. And we also have other issues, so the conflict management was really complex and involved a wide variety of questions. It was a demanding business. So in the best sense of the word, I'd say it was charged with operational policy and not just legal, not just technical, but really about political orientations. And I don't mean that in the sense of party politics, but in the sense of company politics.
[25:58]In terms of operational policy, corporate policy, questions of orientation. For example, how strongly are we focussing on technical innovation? How much acceleration? How much should the brakes be applied? Of course, these are strategic questions that can cause a lot of friction. And I can absolutely confirm this friction at this point. These are difficult issues that have always had to be balanced internally in some way.
[26:30]So as not to, I say wounds is perhaps a big word, but so as not to lead to distortions that then fall on your feet again, to put it bluntly, in other topics, which may be in a completely different context. This calls for the utmost care and a great deal of sensitivity in order not to allow one or the other person involved in the conflict to lock into a certain position, where they then remain, even if the next topic is perhaps about completely different issues and completely different complex relationships are revealed here. For me, this has always been the term that has not been used in this way, but which for me has always summed it up best, this common orientation, that we, in the sense of those involved in these committee conflicts, have always made it clear that we are works councils. We are practically fighting together on one side. And that reminded me a lot of party-political disputes. In other words, the most diverse interests in a large group of people are then, I would say, united.
[27:45]Moral claim cohesion was granted. So despite all the disputes, it was still clear and when we were reminded of this or remembered that we were basically all fighting on the same team and we were works councils, and this always led to calming down, to alignment, but of course it was also used to bring the other party to the defence and to remind them when they had gone too far from the perspective of one party to the conflict. That often characterised these conflicts between the committees, so to speak. I can confirm that. And ultimately, it's also very sensible to handle it this way, because it's only by working together that the works council, regardless of its role, can really stand up to the employer. Every committee has to do this in every constellation, be it internal disputes
[28:49]
Mediation approaches in works council conflicts
[28:44]or disputes between the committees. And I'm happy to concede that this awareness process takes place and it just takes different lengths of time. And one more question, because we're also in a mediation podcast here, so to speak, and we're both mediators. What is your assessment? And I'll give you mine.
[29:09]At first glance, these disputes between committees seem to offer plenty of formal scope for mediators. But from practical experience and from what I have seen, there is almost no room at all. Because it is so charged with works council politics that you are not even commissioned as an external party for a conflict case. You have to be involved beforehand, so to speak, in order to be allowed to carry out mediation work as an external party. Absolutely. I don't think there would be any openness at this point, because ultimately we might not clearly recognise what is easier for us as mediators, what the actual conflict is. And I don't think the awareness at this point is as pronounced. And in this respect, I have not yet experienced a situation like this.
[30:13]Without me being involved beforehand, without someone approaching me from the works council landscape and saying, "Jeez, can't you help us? We're stuck at this point. That doesn't happen here with me either. So I also saw confirmation of what I have learnt elsewhere, that mediation in this form or in the idea that we are in a conflict, but let's hire someone who can help us here and who is neutral, i.e. who doesn't know either of us better, but who simply offers it as a service, that there is practically no room for it. And yet there is enough mediation work being done by many people who are involved, affected or simply present in this conflict. I also found that remarkable. I can also confirm that, and it's the same for me, too.
[31:10]I also conduct a significant number of conversations in the same way as I would, for example, during a mediation assessment in order to get an idea of what the issues are in the first place and then, of course, to delve a little deeper into the underlying interests. Of course, it helps enormously at this point if you have this toolbox in your package, so to speak. But it's not the case that you would then continue to do this consistently. I often experience myself as someone who commutes, i.e. who doesn't do it in the community of a group at all, but who then seeks the conversation outside the group, quite banal in the smoking breaks that still take place or in the evening or during the lunch break or on a walk, which you then take because the weather is nice and you sit somewhere in a closed room all day, you go for a few laps.
[32:17]These are the kinds of situations that I like to use to talk to individual people and to become clearer about their situation in this conflict so that I can perhaps intervene better to find a solution. The picture of the smoke break made me think of a concrete moderation. We then introduced a kind of e-mail text message break, so to speak. Some of us were in the smoking area and the others were still inside the premises, all with their heads down and smartphones in their hands, strolling around and looking at the most important messages. And then I thought, this is the modern smoking break.
[32:57]Absolutely, yes. I well remember a situation where the negotiations took place in the evening and the conflict was more internal than with the employer and the works council delegation and the employer delegation then said, okay, let's go for a walk. And they went round a car park that was in front of this building. The works councils went in one direction and the employers went in the other, but they kept bumping into each other. You always had to make sure that you could conduct the confidential discussions in such a way that no key words were used during the meeting phase. That's one of the associations I still have in mind.
[33:34] Conclusion and outlook on further topics
[33:35]Well, yes, Antje, it has become clear to me once again that the distributed competences under the Works Constitution Act clarify the conflicts between the works council committees, i.e. they are based on the fact that the works councils' involvement can be organised in such a way that the committees come into conflict with each other. We have clarified the connecting kit that these conflicts do not simply come before labour courts or conciliation bodies in a formalised manner. They are not even intended for that. But that the potential for conflict is definitely there.
[34:16]Absolutely. And I also find it confirming, so to speak, that despite the clarity of these potential conflicts, they are dealt with informally and that formalised mediation is relatively unlikely, even if it were to be requested privately, so to speak. At least at the moment. You have to be connected beforehand, so to speak, so that you can do mediation work there. But you have made that clear, both as a legal advisor and a lawyer, this is necessary as a moderator in the cases that I have in mind. But I can also imagine that the IT consultants or the other external people present, who have different professional dimensions, will intervene as mediators when the committees get into conflicts of competence.
[35:13]There is also the person of the economic advisor, especially when it comes to the substance, i.e. when we think about a constellation of operational changes.
[35:26]Restriction, Decommissioning, Relocation. Yes, also there have we Yes one interesting constellation, that the Balancing of interests, the is generally the Timetable for these Measure on the higher Level, so higher in this respect is it inaccurate, so on the overarching Level to negotiate is, so to the Example on Group Works Council or General Works Council level. But the actual Mitigation the so that connected Disadvantages, the Yes Object of the Social plan are, then before Location in the either General Works Councils or Works councils to drive are. And there can one itself natural also very good introduce, that already at the Timetable, which Location is when on it, with which Location gives it itself which Opportunities, that there a enormous Potential in the responsible Committee exists, where then also to the Example a more economical Consultant, the then tough as nails business management Calculations of the Employer either in Question provides or alternatively calculates, even also exactly these Role is due. And to say, here the Figures speak actually one clear Language, now must I the only so to speak mediate in these heterogeneous Group the negotiators.
[36:40]The can I also confirm. But there have I less Conflict experience, the is more this unlived Feeling the Mourning in Economic issues and that the then there came up. So the is really, must one so say, like one Mourning community then also is, when a Location Closed was.
[37:01]Since on General works council moderations from one Automotive supplier with many Locations and it went about several years, so that one then always with the individual Moderations also watched has, like goes it the Locations. Since could sometimes the Economic efficiency the Locations not different be. The one then amortised and have the Closure decision process must and other had one very rosy Future. The was then less Potential for conflict, but rather Accompanying work, like one with this Diversity handles. Antje, so that have we the second Part, finalised or can him finalise and Go so to speak in the third Part about, the we then coming soon tackle become and then also here publish become. Since Go we then on the Conflicts, the Works council committees with Employer representatives have and also fight through, both mediative as also then labour law before the Arbitration board.
[38:13]Or rather then also escalated before the Labour courts and look us the to, what in the Everyday understanding Conflicts between Employer and Employee representatives make up. Exactly, that, what one there usually so that associated. Yes, exactly. Many Thanks to, that you here again with thereby was and so to speak the Inner life from Works council committees and their Interaction co-lit have. Because the is already something more special. Since knows one itself not so simple from, when one the not itself also participated has. Yes, it happens predominantly in closed clearances, whether them now actually Closed are or finalised are in the Senses from confidential Exchange. Yes, so Find none Path so to speak in the Public Press or in Radio and Television, but maximum in the Works council newspaper and the then at the same time also so to speak again as a Move in the Debate from Conflict potentials between this Committees. Since can one whole good fire, yes. Yes, exactly. I wish you one good Time. I says times, until soon, until everything soon and many Thanks to. The was highly interesting with you. Very with pleasure and also you one good Time. Until soon. Ciao.
[39:38]Conflicts between Works council committees in one Company. The have I with Lawyer and Mediator Antje Burmeester discussed. One Colleague from the Cologne Room, the very experienced is in the Handling with Works councils as also in the Handling with conflicts, the Works councils among themselves, but also natural with Employers or Workforce have. And today have we so this Internal relationship from Works council committees in the View taken, the for the General public often not so visible is, but these Meetings the Works council committees, the then the Potential for conflict clarify.
[40:21]Stay frequently behind this Walls of the Meeting and become there edited, Find not the Entrance in Radio and Television or the general Press. And therefore is it one very specific Conflict resolution phase and also for Mediation efforts open, the already before Location are, in Shape from external Consultants, companions, on the moderative Level or even also in the professional Level. It comes rare, so at least the Experience from Antje and me, in addition, that on the occasion of one Conflict extra someone commissioned becomes and so that so to speak formalised one Mediation takes place. I thank you me, that you again here with thereby was and this Podcast belongs to have, thereby Supports and when he you please has, with pleasure also a Feedback leaves behind and him more recommend. So that help you also People, the this Podcast still not know, to listen, because them him listen should, because he their Labour concerns. With best Wishes. Until to the next Times. Comes good through the Time. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes.
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