Attorney Dr Susanne PerkerLawyer and mediator (BMWA) since 1993, founding member and board member of the Hamburger Institut für Mediation e. V. (https://www.himev.de).

Transcript:

#112

(00:00:06) SW: Hello and welcome to the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit" here from the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation Management in Leipzig short :Inkovema. I am Sascha, Weigl, founder, conflict consultant, mediator and host of this podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. It's great to have you and her back on the podcast and the new episode, which today will focus on family businesses and conflicts in family businesses, the interface, so to speak, between economic, internal conflict situations and private family conflicts. And therefore a workplace for conflict counsellors and mediators, coaches and lawyers that has a lot to offer. And for this I have invited an expert from Hamburg, Dr Susanne Perker, mediator, lawyer and, I could almost say, has been working and travelling with family businesses in this field for decades. A very warm welcome. Hello, Susanne.

(00:01:06) SP: Hello Sascha, I'm very pleased to be here today.

(00:01:10) SW: I hesitated a bit whether I could really say decades, but it's just like that. You've been around for decades.

(00:01:18) SP: My God, I've been thinking, it's really been 30 years, so it's madness. I started mediation in 1993. It's unbelievable. I hardly dare to say that number. It seemed too big. But I actually started to get involved with mediation in 1993 and then the Americans came over, like a lot of good things back then came from America and then came 'Gerry & Jack Gary an Friedman, Jack', we organised several seminars with him and attended several seminars, and then I was infected by the mediation virus and it never let go of me.

(00:01:44) SW: Yes, and so in Germany, mediator of the first hour, so to speak?

(00:01:49) SP: second actually I'll say...

(00:01:51) SW: And if I look at your CV now, you were already a lawyer at the time, i.e. a trained lawyer, and that was your basic profession, so to speak, which introduced you to mediation as an alternative conflict management method.

(00:02:10) SP: Exactly, I started working as a lawyer in 1993 and that was at the same time as I started mediation, so to speak.

(00:02:17) SW: And for the topic of family mediation, was that, or family business, not family mediation as we might understand it today, but family business. Was that an area of work for you right from the start and then this change, if it was one, in dealing with conflicts in this situation, or did it only emerge over time that family businesses became the focus of counselling without advice?

(00:02:50) SP: Well, it actually developed first, because mediation was completely new in Germany, people were still coming with blankets and thick socks and thought it was meditation, so we've already achieved an incredible amount in these 30 years, and at that time it was only in the area of family law or family conflicts that mediation existed, and it wasn't even conceivable that it could also be used in the business sector. I then founded the Hamburger Institut für Mediation e.V. together with others in 1995, which is a mediators' association, a non-profit organisation, to bring mediation to the world here in Hamburg. And we started by training family mediators and family mediators for many, many years. And then we came up with the idea that where there are people, there are conflicts, and that's also the case in business. And in all other fields that are not mediation, but business, schools and the social sector, everywhere. And then we extended this to business mediation. We set up working groups together with the Hamburg Chamber of Commerce, founded the first mediation centre for business conflicts in Germany at the Hamburg Chamber of Commerce and have had a congenial relationship with them ever since and have been running this business mediation centre together with the Chamber of Commerce ever since, i.e. our institute. And then, of course, in the area of companies, all Hamburg companies can contact this mediation centre and there are, of course, many family businesses among them. And then I started to focus more on the topic of family businesses.

(00:04:13) SW: So mediation and the form of counselling, so to speak, involving a third party in conflicts was new in terms of the words and what field did you come across? So to date, in family businesses, only tax advisors and legal advisors have worked in this field or, for example, colleagues who perhaps see themselves as team developers, coaches, organisational developers, who have already chosen this type of consultation without advice in a different context and from a different starting point. How did you get involved as mediators?

(00:04:49) SP: So actually, in the beginning there was no specialisation in family businesses and other companies. But the fact is, we know that 90 % of entrepreneurs are family businesses in Germany, in fact over 90 % I've just looked at the statistics again. When we talk about companies, we almost always talk about family businesses. And then, of course, you have to realise that there are small and large ones. I always say business is everything from chip shops to Bayer. And family businesses are everything from Turkish greengrocers to Volkswagen. Everything is defined as a family business. And of course they had their other advisors, just like you say. They still have them and they are still important. So tax advice, legal advice and the profession, I'm a lawyer myself, who came into contact with me, naturally also recommended them. And then they said, "Gosh, we get most things sorted out here, but there's one case that's getting tangled up, we're not getting anywhere, wouldn't you be able to help?

(00:05:51) SW: So the particular special cases, which are then the tip of the iceberg of conflicts, have then also been fed into this new approach, so to speak?

(00:06:00) SP: Exactly. I always say that we solve 90% or almost 99% of our conflicts on our own every day. And sometimes we have a day where we get stuck and then we get into a whirlpool that we can't get out of on our own. And of course, that's also how it is for many consultants, they have their companies and can resolve many conflicts, a lot can be achieved with counselling and things can be resolved together. But there are sometimes one or two where you know, oh God, I can't get them apart, you need help, other help from outside, brought together, divided or brought together, depending on the situation. And that's where outside help is needed, to sit down with people in peace and quiet.

(00:06:33) SW: When I listen to this development and make it clear, it is, so to speak, the classic specialist advice that is in legal advice, also in tax advice, that there are then problems, that it has reached its limits in certain cases, at that time in extreme cases, especially human cases, and then mediation came up as an alternative. In my development as a consultant, I also trained as a lawyer, first of all as a specialist consultant, after such a development, this was often the case in companies, probably also family businesses, because there are so many of them, conflicts were not there at first, but there were perhaps communication difficulties. And then they were supposed to learn an "I" message or something, they were given training or team-building development. And the counsellor trainers with me were always like that, it was always disguised. But de facto it was already the case in training and further education programmes, so to speak, that conflicts were dealt with. And that has now changed, mediation has become the method of choice. How did you experience that conflicts, i.e. how they were dealt with before, were they brought straight to the legal advisor and the lawyer brought into the company or did the HR department rather use coaches, team coaching, communication training, do they have to do that?

(00:08:03) SP: Exactly, actually. If you imagine that there was no mediation in the past, then of course you try to do it with the resources you have available, which are also good, and then of course lawyers, tax consultants, HR staff are needed, then you have certain contact points within the company, perhaps there are several contact points in large companies. And that was often a discussion in large companies. People say that conflicts can perhaps also be resolved with mediation. There is this German round table on conflict management and mediation in the German economy, with many large companies, founded by Jürgen Briem from SAP and Jürgen Klowait from Eon, who said that they were approached, Jürgen Klowait is a lawyer, and he said that I was constantly being approached with cases that I couldn't resolve because it wasn't my job and I had other things on my plate, i.e. human conflicts, or conflicts involving human and emotional involvement, So we said we had to develop something else, and Jürgen Briem at SAP felt the same way, and he often said that we needed something else in addition to our existing works council, contact points, HR department and other possible departments, and we've often had conflict management departments in companies where we also have a mediation tool that people can turn to when things get really tangled up. And that's how it has developed in large companies, they were also the drivers of this round table, they have achieved a lot there and business mediation was also about saying conflicts between companies. In other words, when they say that you don't go to court, but before you go to court, file a lawsuit, an action for payment, then we try again with an amicable settlement. This was not so prevalent in traditional family businesses. I think one of the reasons for this is that we often have one or two founders and they solve everything themselves, they are doers, often doers, i.e. men. And they actually resolve the conflicts themselves and it's only when the second generation comes along that things become more human and then you get into conflict because these issues overlap. Family and business, ownership, we know these three circles, they overlap and these are different laws and that's where disparities and incompatibilities arise. It's only in the second generation, so to speak, that you realise you can't manage like this.

(00:10:30) SW: Because from the family perspective, the court is often not an alternative or a solution to resolve the conflict. There is, so to speak...

(00:10:37) SP: They also clarify a lot themselves. Well, they are often...

(00:10:43) SW: You don't take the family to court.

(00:10:43) SP: Firstly, not that and they are so successful, German companies are extremely successful, German SMEs in particular, and they are so successful because they also have very high social skills and because they work a lot with their employees and are close to the people. That is what characterises many family businesses. They resolve a lot of conflicts themselves.

(00:11:06) SW: If they have resolved the conflicts themselves, so to speak, at least the conflicts that were too much or too intense or too controversial, i.e. areas such as succession planning or the idea of how the family business should be continued, whether in family hands or as a public limited company. And they don't go to court because family issues are simply not discussed there.

(00:11:25) SP: That's often not justiciable...

(00:11:25) SW: That comes on top of that. In your experience and in your assessment, was that a favourable factor for this form of conflict management called mediation, that they were more grateful or more often accepted that they used mediators to resolve these conflicts, or was it rather the case that it was not so compatible, but that they preferred to do it on their own for a longer period of time? You are an experienced mediator with family businesses.

(00:12:01) SP: A mediator is often only called in when one of the parties is leaving. I think two brothers have founded a company and one of them doesn't really want to do it anymore or the other is unhappy with the work. And you've grown apart a bit, but you're still together because the parents, especially the father, say no, but you have to do it. So you have a mission, an inner mission. But we have to do it together. And you're no longer happy together. A case like that. It was a small craft business, for example, where there were two people, which is also a family business. Or a large company where there is a succession issue, there are three children and the son is only the middle son and has been chosen as the successor, but the sister actually wants to join the business. And there's a lot of potential for conflict. There's a lot of friction, not everything is working out, the father isn't really happy with his son as a successor either and then came to me and said, do you think my son is a good successor? And then I said Mr X, I can't judge that. But I realise you have doubts. What can we do to clarify this? It's often about these succession issues. Or if someone wants to switch off, that also happens, or three people have inherited a company, I've done that too. And there was only one who worked full-time and the other two worked part-time or not at all. And then they were unhappy with the distribution of profits and one of them actually wanted to switch off, things like that. And that's when you realise that it's not justiciable, you don't want a war, you don't want a big fight, but you have to talk to each other, it has to be resolved somehow.

(00:13:39) SW: Yes, so a public court case would be a disaster, so mediation is a good option and the need is there, as you describe, every family business has a need for succession, so to speak. At the moment, due to the historical development of small family businesses, especially in eastern Germany, it is precisely the generation of founders who are on their way to a well-deserved retirement, if they allow themselves to do so at all. The problem is often that succession has not been tackled, there is not necessarily a generation that wants to succeed, so the need is there, but it is not being utilised enough. So too little, for whoever, for mediators, certainly, but also for the Chamber of Industry and Commerce, for example, or the Chamber of Crafts, who say, yes, we have built mediator tools, there are mediators in them, but you can't say that we can tell from the press, radio or studies that this is really being utilised.

(00:14:38) SP: You're referring to the dragon slayer market. There are more dragon slayers than there are dragons.

(00:14:44) SW: Very martial, but perhaps not a bad idea in the context of mediation to use such images, but yes, there are a lot of them and the need is great. You are someone where you have had good experience and were able to connect. And the question is, so to speak. Why is that?

A, that it works and B, where it doesn't work and that definitely seems to be the majority.

(00:15:00) SP: So maybe that's why the comparison with dragons isn't so weird, because dragons would imply that they don't exist and there's no need for them, and that's what it's all about.

(00:15:14) SW: Ah, that's the point, that the dragons don't exist. Okay, now I understand. I come from Schwarzenberg, we have that in the town's coat of arms, I heard the story in kindergarten, for me there is, of course (laughs). Now I understand the metaphor that it doesn't exist. I like the picture even more now.

(00:15:46) SP: Yes, but of course the killing doesn't fit in with mediation.

(00:15:49) SW: Yeah, they probably need to kill a few pre-sentence images now too.

(00:15:55) SP: Yes, exactly. So the conflict itself, we can somehow resolve that, I say, but maybe there is a need and that's behind it, that many people want to fulfil the need, and that's the question, so to speak. So I don't think that's the case, but we started publicising it here in Germany in 1992, or learning it in the first place, then teaching it and bringing it into the world. And I think we've achieved an incredible amount in 30 years. It takes 15 years to bring a new service product onto the market, I realised that at the time. People said, oh, old wine in new bottles and then she comes along with meditation and thick socks, which is a bit esoteric and all that kind of stuff. It has caught on. It's in all sectors, we've organised so many events at the Chamber of Commerce, and at the beginning it was just individuals from different sectors. Then consultants came along who wanted to get out. And now people really do come from all sectors of the world and from all areas and they say, interesting, tell me how it works. I've had good experiences with live mediation, by the way, telling people how it always goes badly, it's tiring, you can't get it across at all, but once you've experienced it live and even just for an hour, how the method works, then you get the idea and then I've often realised. People are infected by this virus and say, "Gosh, that's the direct way, talking about what it is, what it's really about, looking at the purple elephant, putting things on the table and talking about what's really bothering us. And your question was, is there a need or isn't there?

(00:17:15) SW: No, the need is there.

(00:17:15) SP: Yes, the need is there, good.

(00:17:21) SW: The question is why it's not accepted in this mass. That seems to me to be a fact.

(00:17:31) SP: The figures and studies also prove that. And otherwise all of us people who offer mediation would be able to make a good living from it. There aren't that many who do pure mediation and don't do any training, for example. Many do training and then make a living from mediation. But there are now more and more of them, and I can see how activity in mediation is increasing. There are mediation laws. The legislator has dealt with this. It is becoming more professionalised. There are now rules. There is now a proper certification label. So it doesn't necessarily help my feelings or me in my mediation work, but it helps the public to recognise that there really is something serious and effective here.

(00:18:09) SW: The paradox is that it was precisely these state subsidies, i.e. the introduction of a mediation law, for example, not a supervision law or a coaching law, but a mediation law, that came about at a time when, for example, there were still masses of lawsuits in Germany. And the figures spoke of a flood of lawsuits, all of which and every dispute ultimately went to court. And then it decreased. From 2005 onwards in Germany, the number of lawsuits filed in civil matters declined massively, without the mediators, who organised themselves at the same time, structured themselves, came together as associations and then, from 2012, were also provided with a law, benefiting from this. That's a point where you have to think about why. And the whole self-narrative, so to speak, that there are some and that it is also known, is nice, but that doesn't make the question an answer.

(00:19:10) SP: So there are fewer lawsuits and the number of mediations should actually increase. But we also had a pandemic, I don't know when the figures you just mentioned were from. When did it start going down, 2015?

(00:19:24) SW: So since 2005, the lawsuits have gone down radically, in all areas, there are a few areas in a few years, that was the Harz laws from 2005-2008. Then that was through at the Supreme Court and then the asylum laws 2015-2018, then that was decided. Now the statistics are still a bit balanced out by the diesel scandal lawsuits, but if you take all that out of the equation, we're down between 20 and 40% in each court case.

(00:19:52) SP: But we can only speculate about the reasons.

(00:19:52) SW: They're only now coming out in the study, so to speak. I don't even want to go into the study that much...

(00:20:00) SP: Of course, it could also be that the legal proceedings are still taking a long time. As a lawyer, I don't notice any of this, so the courts should be less busy. The opposite is the case. I've just seen several posts on LinkedIn about how miserably long court proceedings can take after six years. A date is cancelled, you get the next one in May or July, it's madness. And it drags on forever. I've just received another note from a court saying that we can't deal with your case until the summer. Don't you want court-ordered mediation after all?

(00:20:35) SW: I'm not so much interested in study points. The tendency is clear when you see that the judicial staff is being adjusted and savings are being made. It's more about the question and I've also thought about it from the other side. If you ask mediators how much meditation they have used as a party to a conflict. The same data as for non-mediators.

(00:20:58) SP: Maybe we need to change something again. So in terms of quality, that could be, that could also be the aim of your question. But I don't think enough people have had good experiences with meditation for them to carry it on like that. So first of all, the topic of conflict is still a difficult one, nobody likes to talk about the maelstrom they were in and how terrible it was. With his family members, or a company or with the shareholder, you don't want to make that public. And then you don't go round the regulars' table and say, you, we had a terrible argument, then we did mediation and it was brilliant. In other words, I couldn't solve it on my own, someone else did, or someone else had to do it. That's still a bit of a skewed understanding, because I also go to a doctor, or I ask a doctor, tax consultant, lawyer, there's no shame in that. Maybe that's still a bit of shame, that you say, then I had to get a third party instead of dealing with it more openly, no, we got help there and then it was quite simple. That needs to be publicised more, I think we need to talk about it more. Our society is now such that we talk a lot about problems, about mental disorders, about the increase in mental disorders in the workplace. Everyone has back problems anyway, but now there are also a lot of absences. We have long Covid, we have many, many problems where we have to talk about who needs to talk, more communication. And I think that will lead to us being able to talk more openly about mediation and also talk about the successes of mediation. And how good it is to sit down with a third party and talk things through in peace.

(00:22:22) SW: Then I ask the question, because you work in a field, family businesses, you are also asked for this form of conflict resolution outside of court in the form of mediation. What are the connecting factors that make family members who are in dispute say that mediation suits us. Because it may be a confidential process, it doesn't bring anything to the outside world, because it gives the opportunity to address the things that still resonate and are so important that they can also push hard economic figures, assets into the skart or just let it go against the wall, etc. and whether it really needs stories, so to speak, that this is a good process. I don't think this argument is so valid yet, because there is no one who criticises mediation.

(00:23:25) SP: I think it's both. Oh, I've had people who have said that I've already done mediation and it didn't help, so that's definitely the case.

(00:23:30) SW: That's the other level, of course. But I think that the narrative of mediation is uncontested.

(00:23:37) SP: Then everyone should be beating down our doors, but they're not.

(00:23:39) SW: That's why some mediators are so desperate, why not? This paradox is relevant and I thought that family businesses are a workplace where both are so important, this relationship-orientated, this number-orientated, that you can get to the bottom of this paradox or these contradictions.

(00:23:58) SP: I think that will be the case. My fantasy, and this is purely a hypothesis, is that there is this generation of reasons, they are now 70-80 and some of them have already handed over or are handing over now. They still have a completely different spirit and in many cases the communication was perhaps not so pronounced. They did it within the family, which is something you don't publicise. And they were very successful with it. But when the second generation comes along, the boomers and the post-boomers, then we have a completely different need for communication. And many are closer to other values. There are completely new challenges and it's also common for people to talk more. Even within the family. I've seen a lot of families where we didn't talk about conflicts. I experienced it myself in my family, not in my primary family, but with my uncles and aunts, they didn't talk about it, the children suffered a lot from it, but they also grew up with it and don't know how to deal with it. I've had so many families who inherited businesses, who had lots of conflicts and didn't know how to resolve them all. And when you asked if they talked about it, the answer was often that they didn't really. That wasn't usual for us - we tried to create harmony. And we try not to bring up anything conflictual. But it's actually really getting on my nerves and I can't take any more.

(00:25:26) SW: Susanne, in family businesses you also have exactly this mixture of extended family, where everyone is somehow involved, not just the nuclear family, but often the uncles and aunts, and you have different units, are connected, should stick together in the service of tradition. What is the point with you where you assume or know exactly why you are commissioning me, is it your basic profession, is it your work as a mediator, is it your enthusiasm for mediation, is it your many years of experience as an entrepreneur, is it possibly simply your cosmopolitan appearance as a woman from Hamburg that makes you connectable?

(00:26:03) SP: I would ask my clients, maybe it's a mixture of everything, I know that. I think we get the customers or the mediants who are addressed by their own profile. They go to the website and say oh, that sounds interesting or I like it, for whatever reason. I'm a friend of clear announcements, i.e. saying what is. I hope that comes across, I don't believe in being cautious and saying it's difficult. If it's rubbish, it's rubbish. And if it annoys them, then it annoys them. Then I say that too, or it hurts her, or she says that was an attack. So I really say what's there and people are very, very grateful about it and I think that's one of the essential things and that you can listen well and get to the point quickly. So I always ask the people who come to me first, I also tell them in the preliminary discussion, what is their goal now? What is the aim of the mediation? They don't have to give me a long description of the conflict, of course that comes anyway. But first they need to know what they want here and then we also want to work well together or get on well with each other. Then we already have the first common denominator: we don't want to end up in conflict.

(00:27:09) SW: That's your methodical approach, so to speak, to filter out whether mediation is worthwhile or not, or is it ultimately just information that you get and then work with in the mediation or the process? So, what if they say that my aim is to create clarity, even if it's about the whole thing falling apart?

(00:27:34) SP: Yes, that's also a good goal, but it's important that it's written on the board. It's important that you write it down and the other person knows, you see, that's what I always thought, you just want to get out and you want me to say that. Yes, that could be the case. Yes, that's what I always thought. And how is it for you? Yes, it's good that we have this on the table now. Yes, I knew that all along. It's so important, everyone knows, everyone involved usually knows what the purple elephant is.

(00:28:00) SW: How do you manage at the beginning of the work to ensure that the participants often realise this goal, what  the people involved already suspect and know to say out loud?

(00:28:09) SP: By asking them. That's the nice thing about mediation, I don't have to do much. I just have to ask.

(00:28:12) SW: Okay. The thesis behind this was that many people don't dare to do this because they think it's dangerous to drop their trousers now, so to speak. So, how do you manage to build up the trust that those involved in your presence will say, my goal is to get out of here or that this will be patched up again?

(00:28:38) SP: That's quite simple Sascha, I'm asking exactly that. What is your goal today? What is your goal for mediation? What do you think we can achieve today? Nothing more. If they then say, I want the other person to finally give up their place, then I would ask them a slightly different question and say, so they want to separate? It's important for them that it's clear today that the separation has been decided? Yes, exactly, full stop.

(00:29:06) SW: That's the start of a negotiation, of a negotiation process, that people state their goals and then see how they fit together. And during the negotiation process, there is always the fear that the others will react negatively or that too little has been set. That you could have got a little more or that someone will say something outrageous, that you will offend the other company, that you will violate tradition and so on. In other words, it's not that easy to ask...

(00:29:37) SP: Of course I have a little preamble and in the preamble and the introduction I first explain what mediation is, if you don't know what mediation is and what it means. And we also have a mediation agreement, which I give him and then we go through it again together in the first session. And the five requirements for mediation are of course also on the board and we go through what's in the agreement together. Voluntariness, confidentiality, openness, openness means being fully informed, all information must be on the table. I invite you to be open with each other here, this is the space for that and also to tell me if you don't like something. Mrs Perker, you are there right now, why are you doing this, we actually wanted something else. Please tell me, I need your feedback. I invite you to be open with each other. It's not always easy to put yourself in the other person's shoes and the most important thing of all is to say what you think. We want to look at the purple elephant here today, which could be a tiny little porcelain elephant or it could be jumping in this room. We're going to look at it today, but it's here and there's no point in talking about it. We want to have a look here today, is that okay with you?

(00:30:33) SW: And that's the point, so to speak, where the parties decide whether to trust Dr Perker with her procedure or not.

(00:30:40) SP: No, that happens beforehand, because when they're sitting there, I don't do that during the meeting, so this preamble is perhaps already similar on the phone. So, I choose clear words, I don't beat around the bush. That's how it works here, and you can expect that and the important thing is always your goal, what do you want to achieve? This self-clarification, because your goal is my job. I help them to realise their goal, so I need to know where they want to go. Then we can see how we can get there together. I think that clarifies a lot of things.

(00:31:17) SW: So in the area of family businesses, the way you describe and experience it confirms exactly what we know about mediation on a general level. That the biggest hurdle is getting into the mediation room, i.e. getting to the mediation table. Once this has been achieved, the numbers of agreements are very promising and that is why mediation is also promoted. The question is, how do you get someone to call you or someone who is in conflict to call a person who they assume, for example, with well-informed parties, does not bring a solution, does not give professional advice, just asks me what I want. They still have to have this trust and then develop it. That seems to me to have happened a lot with you, so to speak, that people know you or have heard about you and say it's worth calling.

(00:32:19) SP: I can tell you that I got the best and the biggest cases through recommendations. Sometimes I don't even know from whom. Or sometimes people I don't even know personally recognise me, interestingly enough. Then I stand there amazed and think to myself strangely, you can advertise as much as you want and then someone you don't even know, who has perhaps heard of you or heard of someone else, recognises you. In fact, we know from studies that the reliability and trust of the recommender is crucial. So if a judge recommends mediation, for example, then the parties usually do it, and if a long-standing counsellor recommends mediation, then the parties do it. Because you trust them. And that's how it works, you know a good doctor, you know a good orthopaedist and then I get a recommendation and then I go there blindly because I know he'll tell me what they've done and then it's good. So that's why I say first of all that more mediation needs to be done, especially in family businesses. You don't want to publicise that. Confidentiality and seriousness are very important. You actually want to solve it yourself. Maybe I'll ask someone again and if the counsellor recommends someone, then it can work well.

(00:33:12) SW: We're a podcast for a professional audience, for mediators, so some people might listen and say that Susanne is absolutely right because they might know you personally and that's exactly how it works. And others may sit there with pricked ears and say what is important that I don't make any mistakes at the mediation table and present my training content particularly well. Without me being particularly enthusiastic about mediation and therefore having to show this on my website. Or I take it out of you to make sure that people recommend you, and they don't have to be conflict parties.

(00:33:46) SP: That's difficult to say actually, since there have been websites, which is not so long ago in my world either, people also come via the website and I can only recommend that you make your website really appealing and see what the others are doing and do something different and be authentic. I think my asset when I personally look somewhere is authenticity. When the parties say, where are you right now, what are you doing right now. Then I say, what do you think is happening here, where am I making a mistake, have I paid too little attention to someone? Sorry, I'm sorry. Then we'll make sure that you get a chance to speak, is that okay? You simply put away your own mistakes or omissions, that doesn't affect the mediation at all. It's a burden if you push it away and explain it away or somehow blame the parties for it. No, you can be wrong sometimes. Oh, I was wrong? Sorry, I'm sorry, let's do better. Then let's get back to the topic, is that all right? Wonderful and I've got her back.

(00:34:42) SW: And that's also the experience you've gained in family businesses. If I go back to this point in more detail and take out a bit of what we're doing now in terms of mediation policy or mediation applications. What is special for you when you mediate family businesses, where would you put the point and say that distinguishes this field of work from others?

(00:35:14) SP: I find that the most challenging because I have this overlap between family and business and ownership. Ownership is also an economic aspect and the operational activity in the company is also an economic aspect. So I say I have business and family, then of course I have the conflicts of both fields. And they overlap and sometimes I don't know whether it's the father or the entrepreneur talking. So it's quite clear that we have different rules for families, you can't leave them as a rule, you're born into them, you don't need any special expertise, unlike in a company. But now you want to arrange that. I've actually built up my son as a successor, but I have doubts as to whether he really is. And then I'm stuck inside as an entrepreneur and say, 'Gosh, what's next? The daughter isn't going and neither is the other son and if you ask them, they say no. And that's what we did. And that's what we did, they also want to be part of it and because it's often the case in companies from my experience - that's just a tiny little section that I have - that the company always came first. Everyone said that the family was first, but that wasn't true at all, the company was first. That was the first baby and we said that. And everyone nodded and I thought it was terrible, but no, everyone nodded and said it was true. At the lunch table, you talk about private matters for 10 minutes and then you talk about the company.

(00:36:28) SW: This is the boat that everyone is in and that keeps you afloat.

(00:36:28) SP: That's the reality. And recognising reality is very important, because you don't need to be afraid of anything. Everyone knows that. We're always afraid to say something, because then there's this conflict, no. People live in their reality and they know that very well. And if I can hear that, I can speak up about it. And as a result, if the company was the first baby, before the children, and everyone always talks about the company, that you want to hear about it when you're not in the company, you feel excluded. I've experienced that so often. That's also a very important point, when the succession was already organised, I had a company, everything was sorted out, and the parents were already over 80, and the children were older and there was one who had extreme difficulties. The parents actually said that we had divided everything up really well. No you didn't, I did, etc... he got the company and I didn't. I was never part of it, but you always were. Yes, that's right. Exclusion is systemically the worst thing that can happen to you. If you understand a few of these basic conflicts, you can easily address them. And that helps to clarify a lot. And then the parties can say, oh, I've never seen it like that before. Once I said, why don't you mirror your daughter? What did she just say? Yes, that's right, she was always different and it was always difficult with her. Yes, and I always felt like a difficult child. That's true, but I was always the difficult child with my mother, says the mother. So she transferred what she experienced herself onto her child. And she realised how awful that was. And then you can sort things like that out.

(00:38:11) SW: The point is that field experience is important. In other words, you have to know the language and the prevailing patterns so that you don't miss them completely.

(00:38:20) SP: That would be helpful.

(00:38:23) SW: For a long time it was also a dispute between mediators, it needs this field expertise, this field experience. That definitely speaks in favour of it.

(00:38:29) SP: That's not the field competence in a specific conflict, but everyone who was my child or has children actually knows about conflicts in families. I don't need any special mediation skills, I can listen to myself. And look around me.

(00:38:45) SW: I'm just nodding quietly now.

(00:38:48) SP: That's life experience. And then, of course, you also have to put yourself in the shoes of the parties and think about what it would be like if I were running a company right now. And if the company is actually always a topic at the table whenever we sit together. Then I can imagine, yes, if I can't have a say, I'm out. It's easy to put yourself in that position. And then look, what does it mean to run a company, maybe I should look into that if I want to look after business families. For example, my small law firm, which I've had for many years, the Hamburg Institute, which I ran, I've been in many companies, I've also worked in companies and I know entrepreneurs. And you have to be able to relate a little. So you have to have a relationship with how you feel as an entrepreneur and what you need. And if I transfer that from my small business to a large one, I also have to consider that it's a completely different requirement, of course, a completely different responsibility that has to be borne. And of course, sometimes I don't take interpersonal conflicts so seriously because I'm more focussed on facts and figures and the big picture. And then I think we still get the two children, the two children and three grandchildren. But then you often overlook someone. A little experience can't hurt. I always say that you should mediate in the field in which you feel comfortable, in which you feel at home. So if I come from a company, then I can mediate well in a corporate conflict. If I've worked in the social sector, if I'm at home at school, if I feel comfortable there, then it's a bad fit to go into corporate mediation. I can do that later when I've acquired enough competence, i.e. enough process competence. I can actually do mediation anonymously, it's just the set-up that I can't do anonymously. It's not really about the matter at hand, it's about how can I get people talking to each other again, how can I rekindle trust and what are they really concerned about? I don't have to understand why, they do.

(00:40:45) SW: The biggest hurdle for beginners is that they don't have to penetrate the content of the conflict, but rather be there and focus on organising the communication process.

(00:40:55) SP: Always be on the meta-level and say, what is structurally going on here? For you it's about recognition, for them it's about exclusion, they don't feel heard and for them it's a strong violation because the other person hasn't paid attention to them or the balance of give and take hasn't been maintained. And then they say, yes, there's a point. And I don't need to know what that looks like in detail, it's completely irrelevant. The solution doesn't really matter to me, that's not the point. So I do care, but I personally don't have a stake in the solution, it's about them finding a good solution for themselves and it's so different. Problems are always the same, but the solution is always different.

(00:41:35) SW: We're getting a little bit into the training track now, so that we practically clarify mediation training elements, which is simply important, how to conduct mediation, how to approach it, how to give the decisive points. In terms of time, I would like to give you some more space. It has become clear that mediation is important to you, even in our preparatory discussions, we should actually have had a tape recorder running. What did you miss out on? What is important for you to make clear again in the topics that we discussed, mediation in family businesses, mediation policy, how mediation is viewed, how do people think and talk about mediation? Where has something been left out?

(00:42:18) SP: One point is particularly important to me, and I actually asked you about it. That was the podcast with Jörg Risse, where he said business mediation is something that 4.5 people in Germany can do and it involves millions of euros. In a nutshell. And he works in a large law firm, and so on, that's his world, that's fine too. My world is a different one. And for me, mediation, business mediation ranges from the small craftsman's business that two brothers set up, in terms of family businesses, to Volkswagen and Metro and the big companies. These are all family businesses and there is a huge range of companies in between. And family businesses and 90 % are family businesses that are founded. There are the two- and three-member companies that are super successful and have a lot of conflicts that we can resolve really well with mediation. Law firms, the self-employed, that's all business mediation, which works well. I've already set up a number of law firms or freelance practices, doctors, that's all business mediation. And this is a field where we can work very well with the techniques we learn in mediation training. I don't need to be familiar with million-dollar sums or be able to penetrate the most complex legal structures. I need to be good at organising processes. And very importantly, I have to inspire confidence in the clients personally, so that they have confidence in me and I have to give them confidence - we can manage that, we can mediate that well. I don't know whether we can solve this, but we can discuss it well. My trust that we will find a good solution and that I am authentic. That I'm really open with the parties and say that we can work it out together.

(00:44:20) SW: I still don't quite understand the point about the millions and the large law firms that handle highly complex legal cases in mediation or don't or can only handle a few. Because mediators don't run and push in this direction, it's an exceptional phenomenon or a very special, highly complex field. Most mediators are very open to cases and say I'll take anything that comes along, and that's the problem, that all the needs you've listed don't apply to family businesses alone in mediation, but there are obviously other procedures.

(00:44:57) SP: I only referred to it because he presented it in such a way that only that is business mediation. I wanted to put a counterpoint to that. No, business mediation is much more than that and for me it's not just negotiation, but rather a structured and focussed clarification of the factual and relationship level.

(00:45:22) SW: In a negotiation process?

(00:46:22) SP: No, I wouldn't call it negotiating. You can negotiate from time to time and the Turkish bazaar may also come at the end, but it's much more than negotiating. It's a structured clarification process at the factual and relationship level. And negotiating doesn't necessarily do that. Negotiating does not necessarily clarify the relationship level.

(00:45:47) SW: I find that interesting. I wouldn't have seen it that way. I would have thought that the factual and relationship levels are the content level and the form of the discussion is the negotiation. I was surprised for a moment, but now I understand that you would draw a line there and get a different view of what business mediation is.

(00:45:58) SP: I also used to think that it was negotiating with a third party, but it's much more than that. I see it differently today, it's more in the direction of clarification support, which promises clarification, clarity and truth, but also includes a settlement, which is what clarification support does. But it's much, much more than negotiating. We get to the point much, much quicker, it's not about individual details. Once I have clarified the relationship level, the parties resolve the factual level themselves. It's essentially about what's in the iceberg. If I can lift it a little, bring it to the surface, then that's often enough. It's like when I roll the stone off the rails and then the train moves.

(00:46:32) SW: That's what I mean by a negotiation process. How do we manage in mediation, the parties, with my support and help, to allow that, to organise it in such a way that, for example, the image of the iceberg or the rails, no matter which image you take, but that is a negotiation process of do I take the risk, do I have the courage, do I trust the situation, do I test how I prepare myself? These are also negotiation processes on a relationship level.

(00:47:02) SP: Yes, I see it differently. So a bit different, I think it has more to do with empathy. It has more to do with...

(00:47:03) SW: It's a negotiation offer.

(00:47:05) SP: Yes, it can be. You can call it that. I don't want to call it that.

(00:47:15) SW: We open the conversation...

(00:47:16) SP: I think it's really reaching out to people. Mediation is about turning to people. To really reach out to the others, the others who are sitting there. And to say, can it be that you really feel this and that. So actually a brief understanding, not at all in the details of this conflict, but what is the emotional block for you right now and to get to that point pretty quickly, and then people feel understood and accepted, and that builds trust. So in my conceptual reality, that's more than negotiating. It's a magic moment when I really look at you and realise that we're close and I've understood what you're really talking about. And that's why I do mediation.

(00:48:06) SW: And this moment, we as a society have experience from other settings where exactly the same process of difficulty has taken place. First in therapy, then in counselling settings. This recognition, getting to the core, straining the humanistic idea, and the difficulty is not so much for counsellors, mediators, therapists to organise and communicate this. The difficulty lies with the parties involved to endure this and accept the offer of communication. This is much more difficult in mediation than in coaching. And I agree with what you said at the beginning, we still have work to do to make it work and for the second half to go just as well. That mediation can go the same way as coaching, that after many years of, please don't say I'm in therapy and I have a coach, that mediation can also normalise. But here I see the challenge that conflict parties, and this concerns us mediators just as much as conflict parties, find it difficult to allow this unknown field in the presence of a third party.

(00:49:13) SP: Then we have to make it even easier.

(00:49:15) SW: No, I don't go along with that. I think it's difficult because it has meaning. We'll look into it another time.

Susanne, thank you for your refreshing manner and your frank words about mediation. And for sharing your experience and the tips for aspiring mediators on what is important. I think that's helpful.

(00:49:46) SP: Thank you very much for having me here, I really enjoyed it.

(00:49:49) SW: Greetings to Hamburg, see you soon.

That was my conversation with Dr Susanne Perker, lawyer and mediator, who is very experienced in family businesses, and we talked more about mediation, mediation policy and mediation marketing than about specific methods or procedures in family businesses. And that is understandable given the different perspectives and experiences of mediation, and it was also enlightening for me to see how Susanne Perker looks at mediation and what she can gain from it and what she promotes. I am glad that I can discuss with Dr Susanne Perker, as very experienced mediators of the first or second generation, and discuss different perspectives on mediation, because I believe that it is important for mediators, for prospective mediators, to position themselves, to build up their small business, their service integrated into the everyday life of employees or even the self-employed and ultimately to offer this service precisely and successfully and then also to gain practical experience. The past few years have been very important and significant for the assessment and consideration of mediation and it seems to me that we are in a decisive, reorientation phase after we evaluated the Mediation Act in Germany in 2017, now that the results of the long-term study on the changed way of dealing with conflicts in society will soon be published. I've already spoken about this in one or two places here in the podcast, including with Prof Meller-Hanich, who was in charge of the study. I think it's important for us to reflect on what we do, to take a more realistic look at ourselves and the parties to a conflict in order to be able to offer our services in a way that fits.

That's it for this time. Thank you very much for joining us again. If you like the episode or the podcast as a whole, please leave a small rating or feedback on Apple Podcast or on Google Business under Inkovema. Recommend the podcast to others, subscribe if you haven't already done so and listen again when it's time to listen to the podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. Until next time, have a good time. I am Sascha Weigl, your host from Inkovema, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation Management in Leipzig and partner for professional meditation and coaching training. Me