INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#222 GddZ
Competence and requirement profiles for process consulting
What do mediators, coaches and counsellors need to be able to do?
In conversation with Günther Mohr
Graduate economist, graduate psychologist, authorised transactional analyst, senior coach DBVC and BDP, supervisor BDP, mediator, scrum master, Zen teacher, author of numerous specialist books
Contents
Chapter:
0:03 Introduction to the topic of violence
1:33 The path to resilience
4:36 Number of unreported cases and public perception
6:40 Experiences of those affected
9:16 The influence of institutions
11:46 Violence as a phenomenon for society as a whole
14:16 The role of the media
17:12 Mediation as a solution approach
19:52 The need for companionship
22:07 Challenges for those affected
24:29 The silence of the silent ones
25:38 Biographical perspectives
27:36 The role of mediation
34:01 The dialogue with institutions
36:40 Mediators as companions
41:39 Conclusion and outlook
Summary of content
In this episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", we talk about mediation, coaching and counselling, with a particular focus on the Expertise of consultants lay. I, Sascha Weigel, welcome the renowned economist and psychologist Günter Mohr to explore together what skills and characteristics characterise a successful consultant. We discuss the crucial question of whether a consultant's success should be measured by the number of assignments or the quality of their work, and explore what skills are required to be successful in both self-employment and in-house consultancy roles.
A central topic of our discussion is the Competence profileswhich form the basis for our work in counselling. Günter and I reflect on what basic knowledge about competences entails and how they are perceived by outsiders. It becomes clear that competence is not just knowledge or ability, but also practical application and experience in different contexts. We shed light on how important it is for counsellors to not only possess their competencies in theory, but also to be able to demonstrate them in real-life counselling situations.
We also look at how the traditional education system often imparts knowledge, but not always the necessary skills for practical application. Günter emphasises that skills-based education through practical exercises and experiential learning is crucial. We discuss the importance of not only possessing knowledge as a counsellor, but also developing skills in interaction and communication that are central to process facilitation for clients. Recognising and using "Microprocessing competences" proves to be essential for the ability to carry out effective interventions in counselling sessions.
Another focus of our discussion is the ethical dimensions and the Self-awarenesswhich is an important part of the counselling process. Günther and I discuss how these aspects should be integrated into training programmes to give counsellors the ability to deal professionally with conflicts and various challenges. We also reflect on the demands on counsellors in different contexts and how a deep field competence helps to better serve clients.
Finally, we emphasise the importance of continuous learning and the ability to embrace the unpredictability of counselling methods. The ability to improvise and adapt to new situations is crucial to success as a counsellor. We conclude with the idea that true competence is something that goes beyond mere knowledge transfer and is deeply rooted in experience and reflection.
This episode offers valuable insights for anyone who works in counselling or wants to become one. We invite you to take a more critical look at the topic of competences in counselling and to continuously question and improve your own practice.
Complete transcription
[0:00]When I'm preparing for a coaching session, perhaps the preparation isn't so much about what I'm going to do in detail, what tools I'm going to use and what I'm going to do.
[0:10]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:07] Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit, the podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting. A podcast from INKOVEMA. I'm Sascha Weigel and I'd like to welcome you to a new episode. Today we're talking about mediation, coaching and counselling in general, focusing on the counsellor and their expertise. And this raises the question of what skills make a good counsellor? And what is a successful counsellor, the one who gets a lot of assignments and is well booked or the one who does a good job in counselling or both or a third? Today we are looking at what skills consultants need when they are self-employed or even semi-self-employed or carry out internal consulting work.
[1:13]
Expertise of consultants
[1:14]And that brings us to the keyword competence profiles. Today, and after a long time, I have invited Günter Mohr to join me. An economist and psychologist and a frequent guest here on the podcast. Hello Günter. Hello Sascha.
[1:31]Günter, it's been a while since the two of us did a podcast together. Time flies.
[1:37]What are you doing? How are you doing? I have so many different roles in my life that I have to look after and I have quite a good mix of roles. It ranges from private roles to organisational roles, professional roles and doing new things that I've never done before. And so, especially in the professional field, artificial intelligence and so on, there are new opportunities today and I also make YouTube videos myself. from the edge of the field. Although I saw the other day that you weren't at the edge of the field, but in a beautiful area that I couldn't recognise. Yes, I made the last video in Hamburg. I have a branch there. So that was so old at the edge of the roof in Hamburg, in a very nice residential area in Altona, where I dealt with the topic of tomorrow. So how important are the first few minutes and the first half hour of the day? Yes, exactly, I've seen that. Exactly, as I said, I couldn't place it, but Hamburg, yes, that makes sense. Günther, as a psychologist, you are very familiar with competences and with competence assessors and competence profiles. What do you need to know fundamentally if you want to talk about competences? The usual bon mot is that it's not so much to do with the person, but rather an attribution by others. What do we need to be prepared for if we want to talk about competences?
[3:04]Competere in Latin means to strive together, i.e. that different things have to come together in competence and what you say is not so uninteresting, i.e. that it has to be perceptible from the outside. Because competence differs from knowledge or perhaps also from a skill that someone has in that it shows application. Expertise is demonstrated by the fact that someone can apply a certain procedure or is practised in its application, so to speak. So a lot of things come together, i.e. knowledge about it, a skill, but also actually something like experience. Otherwise it is not visible as a competence. In other words, if it is visible to others, then it is also measurable and can therefore be objectified, so to speak. Are these descriptions that need to be applied to competences, compared to perhaps simply having thoughts or being able to think?
[4:05]Well, if you differentiate that purely from knowledge, that's an old criticism of the traditional education system, universities for example, that knowledge is taught there, but not competence. Yes, well, you can measure that too, knowledge is easy to measure, but competence is measurable, but it's a bit more difficult to measure. So you have to have appropriate observation tools that are either objective or not. In other words, they must be based on the feedback from participants, those affected or people. That was a pair of opposites, or rather a debate.
[4:43]Imparting knowledge, being taught knowledge and being taught expertise. Yes, that's what I did at the university, that's what I did, because I'm actually interested in teaching my students skills. In other words, if it's formally called a lecture and I myself come from a time when we also read aloud, so to speak, a lecture for me looks like this: we give short inputs and then practise and do a lot and apply things. I think there's a difference between working in a skills-orientated or knowledge-orientated way. Yes, can we imagine that the coaching training courses that we also offer, so to speak, or other training courses that we now have in the area of adult further education, initially cause astonishment at the university but are then gladly taken up. At least that's how I experience it with law students, when I offer mediation as a basic training programme with lots of exercises, the feedback is always that it's different than usual. It's not just a seminar. Is it, so to speak, where you would say, yes, just like coaching training or supervision or other TA training, these are methods of imparting skills and not so much just knowledge.
[6:02]Yes, I think that's where it starts. I've already emphasised that experience, the consolidation of certain procedures, that applies very much to all methods in coaching too, that it's not the one-off communication or the one-off idea, the one-off implementation, but when something can actually be incorporated into the behavioural spectrum of procedures. And that is also a learning process that takes place.
[6:28]consolidation of what has been learnt. So you certainly can't do that in a university lecture, but as you said, I mean, it's also perfectly clear that it's much more fun for students if you do something practically than, I don't know whether people's attention spans are shorter today than they used to be, it's often claimed that I can't do that now, I know I can't prove it, or I don't have any studies on it, but of course you also have a corresponding interaction and so on. And in this respect, competence in action, in application is, I think, something very central. That would also immediately explain why a degree alone is not enough, even if it's in psychology or theology or law, to be a good counsellor, a good coach, a good process facilitator. But if you assume that you mainly learn knowledge at university. Of course, you also learn en passant, even if it's not included in your grade, what it means to find your way in such an organisation. And, of course, skills are also developed through a degree programme, even if it's not written on your grade.
[7:49]Yes, I think that's an important aspect. I can't speak for theologians now. They are often not alone. They have even more power when they work practically. Maybe that's promoting competence. But even as a psychologist, when I think about what I was able to do when I came out of university and hadn't yet trained in therapy, for example, it was quite poor, from today's perspective. Thank God I didn't really know back then. We were still let loose on clients.
[8:33]
The path to becoming a coach
[8:27]And then you have learnt through a lot of experience, the competence, through training on the job, so to speak. So if you imagine a person who says, okay, then I'll become a coach or I want to mediate conflicts as a manager or mediator and I look at what kind of skills profile is required there, what kind of requirement profile is there? What do I need to be prepared for? What do I need to be able to do? If you imagine a process facilitator independently of the setting, i.e. whether it's supervision or mediation or coaching, the methods are often only nuanced differences.
[9:12]And the basic idea is to jump from a root, how to advise there. Yes, I mean, there are these classic competence models that assume personal competence, social competence, methodological competence, contextual competence and perhaps a few others. I think this mix is important to recognise. Especially with these professional orientations that you've just mentioned, it's something like personal and self-competence, which is very important. You radiate something when you work with a client and that requires something like what we call self-awareness in practice and really having experienced many situations and also having looked at yourself.
[9:59]What type of person you are, what kind of transmission reactions you have and so on and so forth. I think that's very important. What I would like to emphasise, which impressed me a lot, was a dissertation I once read. I think it was by a Swiss man who analysed the so-called small change situations in coaching. These are key situations in a coaching session, if you think of it as 90 minutes. There are then smaller time units in it. In other words, smaller interactions where something effective actually happens through some kind of intervention. And he analysed this in his dissertation and it was very exciting. He also precisely defined that something surprising or irritating might occur for the client in the intervention and then a reaction to it that also picks up on something or changes the frame of reference, i.e. the mindset.
[10:55]I find that very, very exciting. If you think about it further, theoretically there are probably some people in the audience who are involved in transactional analysis. So there's the idea that there should be a so-called ego state change. And that has something to do with these small situations where someone changes their attitude at that moment from perhaps a powerless or victimised one.
[11:23]In an attitude where he can be more active, feel more self-confident, can change. So I think it's very important to have this, I would say, micro-process competence as a counsellor, in addition to the big headings I mentioned earlier, to recognise these small situations, when something like this is possible, that's not something I can plan before a coaching session. It comes in the situation, when I have the ability to recognise when such a situation is and how I can use it, which is very beneficial. Yes, that's the infamous ego state change situation that we always needed and looked for on tapes for the exam. Would you say that these competences of the, they are now being developed, this will become an experience that is anchored on the part of the client and the one to convey that these are the same competences or is that something, because you say you can't plan that, so I don't have it in my hands as a coach and therefore I can't say that this corresponds to my competence. Again, the question would be, is competence something that I can call up in a plannable way or does it sometimes show itself by chance and I can't have it at my disposal, like I perhaps used to play with the knowledge with teachers and say, I know it, but I can't say at the moment.
[12:50]Well, this discussion about the unavailability of things has recently come up again in science. I do believe that you can train this situation, i.e. that you can really resolve to discover this individual situation. That this is much, much more important at a certain point in learning coaching than what I plan to use as a big tool in a session. So I work with the inner team or with the house model or something like that. That would be a big tool. But I'm learning to recognise these small situations and simply go into a session for training in a completely unplanned way, so to speak, and then wait to see when a situation comes up that I can then use very well for myself in this respect.
[13:39]In this respect, you can also train it, but it is true that it is also characterised by a certain unavailability, i.e. you can't plan it, and that is important. In other words, a… willingness to embrace the unknown and to be able to improvise is itself a skill that is required or that you develop, whether you can always prepare yourself well or whether you really train yourself to say that I'm going into the unknown, which is often a topic in coaching with clients. Yes, I think that makes a big difference to the counsellor. In other words, when I'm preparing for a coaching session, the preparation is perhaps not so much about what I'm going to do in detail, what tools I'm going to put together, but simply going into silence and emptying myself internally a little so that I can then be open to these things that come up. That is perhaps a more important way of preparing than the others.
[14:44]If I look at it from a distance, that would mean that coaching and this process support also have a lot of their value in the fact that situations, awkward situations, difficult conversations or even anxiety-provoking conversations ultimately become a good experience. And that this does not become a trauma, but rather is worked through in a well-anchored way. Now I'll use the German expression durchgearbeitet. Would you say that this is part or a large part of the work that supervisors, mediators, i.e. process counsellors as a whole, but also mediators, have and that is why they do it?
[15:31]You have to be self-supervised, self-therapised and experienced in the field and therefore have a kind of, how shall we say, field competence or have experienced conflicts or difficult situations first-hand. Hey, if you're listening to this podcast and you like it, why don't you give it five stars and leave some feedback so that others who haven't listened to it or found it yet can do the same. And now we continue with the episode in the podcast, well through time.
[16:09]That's how I remember my training. I first trained as a therapist and then worked more in the field of coaching and organisational development. We just had this point: can you see coaching expertise from the outside? Yes, but you can also feel coaching expertise. And for me there was a point where I actually had the feeling that I could do whatever I wanted. I can deal with it somehow. That has to do with it, of course,
[16:42]
Experience coaching competences
[16:38]that you have already experienced a few extreme things and somehow survived. So in that respect, I think it's something that you can perhaps also experience from coaching expertise, that you can say, well, somewhere, you said you can still look forward to the situation, it's perhaps not always so radical with the joy, but at least that…
[17:04]client situations and so on are no longer anxiety-ridden, because that is already an experience. We also know from our training courses that at the beginning people have a lot of uncertainty about what's coming and somehow prepare themselves tool-wise to take away their fear. But I think that experiencing expertise has a lot to do with it, whatever happens. I can deal with it in some way and if I don't have an answer, then I can say so. All in all, that doesn't sound to me like I want to become a coach or a mediator, so to speak, so I'll take a look at the competence profile of the associations. Every association has requirements that it ultimately asks for or wants to recognise in examinations or that they have written down. I believe that our coaching association, the DBVC, also has a written, very well formulated competence profile. I couldn't just sit down and say, I'll have a look at what competences I've developed and how well, and then I'll concentrate on the others. It doesn't seem feasible and realisable to me to continue like a training plan, even if it was formulated in a very mathematical and structured way. Instead, it seems to me that I have to get involved and then simply find a good coaching programme.
[18:31]
Training requirements in coaching
[18:32]Yes, and it takes time. I think there are coaching training courses that are like three or four weeks of pressure fuelling. From my point of view, what we are discussing here now will not teach coaching skills, but a bit of knowledge and perhaps a few communication skills. In other words, this appearance of requirements. Incidentally, I also think the DBVC list is very good. And we have now looked at it again in transactional analysis, because there is also the final TH coach, what do we actually require and we have that there too.
[19:08]Taken into account, but it really is the case that you can't tick off one, two or three things one after the other, but it is also something that will occur at some point during the coaching training and is perhaps also a bit of an obligation for the trainer or teacher to create such situations for the participants, so that certain topics come in, for example ethical competence is also a sub-topic, so that I look at where it can become ethically problematic when I tackle certain topics with someone. It's not something that necessarily has to come up, but it's up to the teacher to make use of it if such a situation arises and if it doesn't arise at all, it's their job to place it in the training programme at some point. Once again, these competency profiles from the associations are perhaps more for the people who teach coaching.
[20:05]As an indication that they think, what tasks do I present to my participants? I also found it very helpful from this point of view. I didn't know this from the TA, but of course they also have a requirements profile. But the question that arises for me and above all because I come from the setting of mediation, so to speak, and the training guidelines of the legislator or the regulator are almost meagre in comparison. In other words, we are trained with 130 hours, which has already been increased, and a few cases, which means that we get into practice very quickly, so to speak. I know from coaching training, but also from transactional analysis training, that we don't calculate in units of hundreds of hours, but rather in thousands. And you are also trained as a therapist, or you are not a therapist, but you are also an authorised therapist alongside other skills,
[21:03]
Developments in coaching training programmes
[21:00]where also several thousand hours. How do you look at the development? Would you say it's a linear development, so to speak, towards faster qualifications and less demanding work? Or is it something I know from the legal profession, that you get into practice more quickly and then gain experience there that you wouldn't have in a training group because there are no clients?
[21:32]How do you view the development over time, which you helped to shape?
[21:37]Well, there is already a trend on the market to offer shorter training programmes in all areas. I don't know whether the therapists are following suit. I read another case yesterday about how many thousands of hours a therapist has to do today. My daughter herself is on this child and adolescent psychotherapy course. Life education, when she tells me what's required there, I think, oh dear. Even yesterday, 4,500 hours. I have the feeling that it has expanded since the time I did it, at the end of the 80s. I can't say the same for mediation, as you're more of a specialist in coaching, but I can say that there is a trend towards shortening training periods. Associations such as transactional analysis, which focus very strongly on this self-awareness and also on people having to work through a bit of their history in order to be ready to face others professionally, tend to hurt these associations. But that's also something that candidates and participants who are looking for training don't realise. They go into the coaching training programme with the idea that they are going to learn a foreign language, right? But it's not enough just to be able to order a beer in coaching.
[22:58]That is the question of what vision you have, what goals you are pursuing. That was great. I remember a colleague who asked himself, "Am I going to do one training course after another, with weekend courses that always lead to a qualification in a year and then you somehow have 15 certifications on your list of qualifications?
[23:22]Or do I go into TA training and know that I will have continuous support for the next few years in a field that is more or less modernising, but it is already a professional life decision, so to speak. So professionally speaking, I'm making a commitment to go down that path myself and say I'm going to take an exam in five years or whenever. Well, I would say that both paths provide experience. Yes, that's also a question of type. If I'm the relationship-orientated type who also likes to have a relationship like that, a home, then maybe I'd rather go somewhere where I can bring myself and all my private roles to the table in the long term. Someone else who is more objectively orientated or fixated on these results and degrees will take the path you've just described. But there's also the option to go off the beaten track. I found that very good for me. I did transactional analysis for a long time, but it was always very important to me to get to know these other perspectives and to be in other camps.
[24:44]
Competence profiles of the DBVC
[24:38]Then more like home and travelling, where was the model. Günter, we briefly touched on this earlier, and perhaps this also concludes this competence profile of the German Federal Association.
[24:51]That a compilation or an evaluation of a wide variety of competence profiles is also available in the official editions, in the DBVC downloads, both for teachers and for coaching trainers.
[25:10]And you also said earlier that you think it's pretty good how it's structured, how it's formulated. What would you use it for when you're in training and as a trainer? Is it something where you can say it's a practical tool or is it just nice to have, good to know, but I'll get the skills regardless of this formulation, so to speak?
[25:34]I think it makes a lot of sense to take a look at it, because if you read it in depth, it's also very exciting, because I still know the story of how this compendium came about. I was involved at one point, I can't remember exactly which one. I also have the pleasure of knowing Christoph Schmidt-Leleck very well, who had a great influence on these competence issues and who also introduced this element of dialogue, which is very important. It's not dialogue in the conventional sense, but dialogue-based work in the sense of Buber, Bohm and the people who have dealt with these topics scientifically. How should the coach's attitude be structured? On the other hand, the DBVC also emphasises things like scientific connections. I think that's also very important, i.e. not giving up this foothold or this connection and pretending that this is just some kind of practical wisdom. In this respect, the DBVC's competence stories also emphasise contextual competence, which is often neglected.
[26:49]What to the Failure many Approaches also leads, when someone zero Hunch from the has, what the People actually in the Everyday life practical operate, with those worked becomes. Man must not Chemist be, at with People in one Chemical company to work, but one must any Idea have, what make the because? And there comes natural one Quantity together. The goes Yes wide about the beyond, what so classic Therapy stories are, the more so on the personal and Self-awareness page comes Yes through in the Coaching straight, and the has the DBVC there whole good brought in, actually also so social, social, economic Questions with inside. The is me also noticed, because I know the Discussion also still from the Mediation, whether one so to speak Conflicts mediate can, independent from Knowledge and Experience from the Field, from the Context, the the Participants have. The was strong affirmed at that time, that the one independent Expertise is. And I believe, with Guidance gave it also these Discussion. Must I somehow the Industry know or can me, when I there lead can, in the Organisation also elsewhere lead? And the was one Time long very…
[28:01]Yes, affirmed and formalistic said, the is one whole own Expertise and then is good. But I tend also in addition, also from more practical Experience, that one Field expertise even also so that connected is. So I can these Expertise also in this Context then also only so to the Unfolding bring. And the is not so whole simple then also in one other Organisation or Economic sector then just as good so to speak to enter the market. and I have there also one Learning effect again. Günther, many Thanks to for the Insight and the Communication also yours Experience, what the Topic Expertise and Competence profiles concerns. Man learns never from.
[28:44]Exactly, one learns never from. Have I now for me said? Yes, yes, yes, everything good. But I white also, that I the on me coins may. You are Yes there also so to speak whole direct my Mentor and therefore would I the now also not deny, already even not so in the Public. Günther, I wish you everything Good. We See us soon again, also directly. And it was beautiful, you times again in the Podcast to have. Yes, many Thanks to, that I there be was allowed. Perhaps was what Interesting facts thereby for the Listeners, Watching.
[29:16]Exactly, when it so is, leaves a Like and until soon. Ciao.
[29:25]
Knowledge vs. expertise
[29:20]Bye bye. The was my Conversation with Günther Moor to the Topic Expertise and Competence profiles. We have us on the Competence profile of the DBVC, Germans Federal Association for Coaching, specialised or it more accurate looked at and have the most different Areas of expertise addressed. Before all Things but clear made, Knowledge and Expertise, the are two various Things. Expertise has what with Skills to do, the visible are, the itself in Behaviours express and the sometimes not so plannable are like perhaps Acquisition of knowledge. The before all Things but even with Experience and also frequently more developed Experience, supervised, more reflected Experience to do have. And the becomes in good Training centres also controlled, favoured and it is none Tools and Knowledge transfer, the on one Checklist simple only visible becomes. Beautiful, that you with thereby were. When you the please has, leave behind but a Like and one Comment, so that also other this Podcast here to the Themes Conflict management and Coaching, Mediation also Find can. Me would it look forward to, us would it help. I thank you me with you and stay with best Wishes. Yours Sascha from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management.
[30:44]And Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes.
