INKOVEMA Podcast „Well through time“
#213 GddZ
Internal counselling
And what does that have to do with works councils?
In conversation with Rolf Balling
Rolf Balling, Diplom-Kaufmann (University of Cologne) with a specialisation in social psychology, 7 years in management functions (marketing/controlling) at Alcatel-SEL AG, thereafter 10 years as head of the management training and organisational development department, Training in TA up to teaching transaction analysts in the field of organisation (12 years on the job), training in Group dynamics (2 years extra-occupational), training in Systemic counselling (7 years part-time), From 1990 to 2002 Structure of PROFESSIO GmbHAcademy in the field of human resources, as a teaching trainer and managing partner.
Well through time.
The podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting.
Contents
Chapter:
0:08 – Welcome to the podcast
1:25 – Spring and a spirit of optimism
2:57 – Focus on internal consulting
7:17 – The balance between closeness and distance
10:28 – The role of internal consultants
14:52 – The switch to external consulting
17:03 – Challenges of internal consulting
24:00 – The works council as an internal advisory body
27:29 – Transition to external consulting
32:19 – Conclusion and outlook on counselling perspectives
Summary of content
In this episode of the podcast "Gut durch die Zeit", we talk to Rolf Balling about the complex dynamics between internal and external consulting. Rolf, who has extensive experience in both areas, shares his insights on the challenges and opportunities that such role changes bring. We explore how internal consultants need to build the trust of the organisation in order to work effectively and how they can play a key role in this. Balance between closeness and distance to their colleagues.
Rolf explains that the Development of internal consulting not just a reaction to economic considerations but also arose from the realisation that internal consultants often have a deeper understanding of the corporate culture and the specific challenges faced by employees have. This creates a proven basis of trust, which is crucial for effective workshops and problem solving. We address how important it is to create an open communication culture within the company in order to institutionalise internal consulting opportunities.
During the interview, Rolf also reflects on how internal consultants differ from external consultants, particularly in terms of Responsibility and influencethey have on the organisation. While external consultants often bring an objective, unbiased view to the table, internal consultants are in a constant state of tension between loyal affiliation and the need to offer constructive criticism. This duality requires a careful examination of one's own roles and responsibilities.
A central point is the Role change from internal to external consultantwhich Rolf describes as one of the biggest and most difficult transitions. He emphasises that external consultants not only have to acquire, but also need a completely different approach to clients in order to gain trust and develop customised solutions. At the end of the episode, the importance of recognising and addressing consultants' personal weaknesses to ensure continuous improvement in their consulting work is also discussed.
This episode offers valuable insights into the world of consulting and explains how both internal and external consultants define their roles and navigate the tension between aspiration and reality. Rolf gets to the heart of the complex interrelationships and offers both experienced consultants and newcomers valuable perspectives for their own professional development.
Complete transcription
[0:00]But this combination for difficult actions internally, I know the shop
[0:08]
Welcome to the podcast
[0:05]and can tell him externally, now you have to be careful or it works and it doesn't work. Or the external person, who sometimes intervenes quite unabashedly and curiously or something like that and sees what happens. So this combination was really highly effective. Welcome to the podcast Gut durch die Zeit, the podcast about mediation, conflict coaching and organisational consulting, a podcast by INKOVEMA. I'm Sascha Weigel and you're welcoming you to a new episode. Yes, hello, there I am. Yes, there he is, Rolf. You really are one of our regular guests and welcome, Rolf Balling. Yes, welcome too, Sascha and of course everyone who listens to you. And you too. This time I'm really going to focus on a topic that really concerns you and has had a significant influence on your entire career as a consultant, namely this area of tension or this balancing act between internal consulting and external consulting. And you are predestined to look at this, because you have experienced both extensively in your work biography, have been able to experience them and perhaps had to experience one or the other. But let's take a look at that at our leisure. Let's start with the approaching spring. Rolf, what are you up to? How are you’doing?
[1:25]
Spring and a spirit of optimism
[1:26]Thank you, yes. The arrival of spring is always very important to me. So when the crocuses come and the snowflakes are already there or something. I think that's really great. There's something very biological, optimistic and invigorating about it. And I like to get emotionally attached to it. Yes, it's a spirit of optimism.
[1:46]An emotional mood of optimism and we'll see to it that we can also create a political mood of optimism - we can't avoid such issues today - so that after the election, where we are now, we can really create a mood of optimism among the entire population. Yes, great. Although, when I look at the word, a new beginning, something breaks somehow. And what then breaks through the breakthrough, you may never know exactly, but it's definitely an opportunity. Rolf, have you got the camera out again? Yes, of course. And I took the last snow shots and thought, oh, let's quickly capture it again, because the snow is over. Okay, then I can wait for the next one. Maybe we really can do it again. I had already thought about it some time ago and then the coronavirus intervened and we decided to put together a small exhibition here at the Baumwollspinnerei of photos that you took from a counselling perspective and published a wonderful book about. I've wanted to tell you for a long time that this is exactly the right opportunity here in the podcast to make a certain semi-public commitment. On my part and perhaps also on yours and ours.
[2:57]
Focus on internal consulting
[2:58]Gladly, gladly. Rolf, let's get down to business. Internal consulting. You started out as a consultant, as an internal consultant. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about what you learnt, what internal consulting is all about. So if I'm imagining it correctly, it was a task for you, a job where there weren't many role models, so to speak, in your time, but you had to practically work it out on the job. What was it like for you as an internal consultant in your former company, whose name I don't know? IGT is still known and SEL, because at the time it was the largest telecoms provider in Germany alongside Siemens, 30,000 employees, so not that small, but it hasn't existed in this form for a long time. But for me it was a double upheaval, because before that I was more in management, head of planning, analyses, business graduate and then by chance I got into the consulting business because they said we needed someone to get out of the government business and teach us marketing and we needed someone to manage the whole thing. Management training and sales training.
[4:11]And that's where I came in. It wasn't from Scratch. The company had been doing it for three, four, five years. And I want to say right away that it's very important to develop a culture there. Because in the beginning, internal management didn't really know what to do with internal consultants. And if you're too close to the HR department, it's no good. If you're too far away, it's not good. And if you're not professional, it's not good. It's not a given that a good culture will develop, and I was lucky enough to encounter a very good culture there.
[4:40]I was lucky enough to be able to work with many external people straight away and learn from them, so that after about five years I was really fit for internal consulting and also for external people, of course. And so that I can really visualise or understand it, these companies didn't have much experience of employees being able to get advice from each other beforehand either. I find that hard to imagine, but it must be something new that they have institutionalised it in such a way that there is a group of people who act as internal advisors. Yes, that's right. That was also, you have to see it in context, back then with a movement to humanise the world of work and really use employees as a resource and a new management style. There was a lot of that, a real spirit of optimism. And we were lucky enough to be able to offer a lot of positive things with the co-determination laws and everything else that was there.
[5:39]So it was more about activating employees, giving them more insight, more responsibility, more involvement. That was attractive from all sides. But there wasn't a lot of experience in how to organise something like that. But being on this bandwagon, getting involved, learning and experimenting was a really exciting time. It's hard for me to imagine what it was like. But you had staff, so to speak, and you had employees, but you didn't see them as a resource for each other, so that they could teach each other something. In other words, across teams and departments. Yes, of course that always existed in well-managed units in a department.
[6:23]Only they didn't talk about it, they didn't even have terms for it. It was more of a coincidence. One person liked it and allowed it and the other didn't. There was no concept for it and no idea that you had to develop something somehow. The idea of developing something only developed very slowly. And what were the points that you came across because there was already something there in the company where you realised, okay.
[6:50]Now, as an internal consultant, my idea of this organisation is changing. Has that changed the relationship with the company? If I ask this from the perspective of an external consultant, we take care to maintain a binding distance. To enable people to get to know each other and to build a relationship,
[7:17]
The balance between closeness and distance
[7:13]but also to remain at a distance in order to see something from the outside. Is it also a task for internal consultants to keep their distance in order to be able to advise the company as an internal consultant? Yes, of course, that's very important.
[7:30]It's always just a balance, that's all. So how much distance do I need? And that can also change a lot. I can be very close to it, I can be involved, but then I have to distance myself again. But you need a fundamental relationship of trust with the management and especially now with the staff and, in our case, with the HR director. And if this relationship of trust is there, then something can develop in both directions. And proximity and distance are good at the same time. But to be honest, that wasn't reflected so much internally at the time. That came first, the systemic approach back then came, yes, from family therapy and so it spilled in, companies, people first thought about the fact that it was an important point. What was the task? So what were you counselling about? It doesn't seem to have been just hard facts as a counsellor, where you just say, I'm happy to tell my colleagues, so that's not a problem.
[8:23]It was very specific. Back then it was, you know, maybe a metaplan, working with punch cards and pin boards, and that was quite new at the time. And many of our people actually developed a mastery of sticking the pins in correctly and writing on the flipchart and metaplan and moderating people when they were talking to each other. But that was very welcome and very well received. But it was done in this way, seriously, and said, we also have problems. And in general, where does the shoe pinch? We want to find out now and change something. There were a lot of big projects at ESL and I can see that the project is going well, some were going badly. And then we came up with the idea of taking our people and organising a workshop.
[9:08]That was our chance and we proved ourselves. So at many workshops, where things were really rock bottom, but what we managed to do, people said it was good for us. So if things really aren't going well, we do a workshop and then it works again. And that was our resource and the basis of the trust that we proved ourselves there. And you were the ones who were accepted, so to speak, to hear what would break out in the workshop. Was that a question of, do we use internal or external people or was it simply a question of, if something like this takes place, then only with your own people?
[9:48]No, the company culture has always been relatively open. So for really difficult workshops, even with more than 30 or 40 people, we worked with external people and chose the right ones to learn from. But this combination for difficult activities internally, I know the shop and can tell them externally, now you have to be careful or it will work and it won't work. Or the external person who comes in unabashedly and curiously or something.
[10:18]Intervening and seeing what happens. So this combination was really highly effective. But it was also used by
[10:28]
The role of internal consultants
[10:25]of the company, recognised by the employees themselves. That was the basis. Yes, that brings me to a point, so to speak, to a question that has often bothered me, because I couldn't imagine that internal consulting simply grew because external consulting was too expensive and it was purely for economic reasons to say, we'll just use our own people now, that we pay anyway, rather than using expensive external consultants, but that it also made sense, in terms of content, for certain issues and problem situations, to have moderation or advice from people who know the business and who are familiar with the case and the dilemmas that come with it. In other words, an external view can not only be fresh, but also sometimes just wrong. But it's not that easy to buy externally. Because you need the internal expertise to see who is available and who can you take? And is that a five-figure market price or how do you do it? So the expertise has to be available internally. And that was realised very quickly. Now the question is, what order of magnitude? So how many people do you employ internally? And what is the budget for external people? And for us, I think.
[11:44]It was always 50-50, i.e. the internal cost choice for half the budget, in total half of what you then buy in externally. And that has actually worked well. You just can't make the internal area too small, because then you no longer have the expertise to deal with it economically. In other words, from an organisational perspective, you shouldn't think in terms of either/or when it comes to the question of internal-external, but you need a good pool of both. Yes, and you have to expect that internal staff will also leave after five years or at some point, externally. And to be honest, that's a good thing, because as an internal consultant you don't have huge career opportunities. You would have to go into HR somehow, which at least they really wanted, or go external or look for a niche.
[12:39]So the natural good movement was to get people with talent internally, to train them, also externally, and after five or ten years they leave, except for what I was then, leadership management training. You can then put up with that for longer than internally and that's also a perspective. So this dropping out of the organisation is not just an individual decision by the person, but is also very much in line with the organisation, which then says, yes, that fits. So if you've been here internally for five or six years, then it's only understandable that you'll grow out of it.
[13:17]Yes, that's entirely intentional. And there is always the option, if you remember that he was really good at the job, to hire him even if he is now an outsider. That's also possible. I would like to change the perspective, so to speak, from this view of external and internal and what makes the difference, to what does that mean for an employee who embarks on this path, internal consulting, knowing that it can then also go outside and this commitment ends as an employee. But this first phase, how does the organisation change from his perspective? Can you tell from your experience, or from the colleagues you have spoken to, can you see a pattern of change and what is changing? Some people come into this job straight from university as psychologists or organisational psychologists. They also learn what it means to work in a company from this job. And to be honest, that's not a terribly favourable option. The best thing is to get to know an organisation as a normal employee or somewhere and then go into the consulting job. These are very different paths.
[14:37]And some people never really become good consultants, but some would never have become good managers either. So I was quite happy that I got into consulting in time, because I was already good at management, but I didn't really enjoy it.
[14:52]
The switch to external consulting
[14:53]So my real talent, my real ambition was in consulting and that was a very lucky coincidence for me. But you don't necessarily get this knowledge of how an organisation works as a consultant. You always get to know the clients in special crisis situations or whatever and you have to be careful not to be patronising. Yet another head of department who can't lead, yet another team that somehow can't manage or something and then you feel so elitist. So knowing the tough business of a normal employee is an important experience. And I'll come back to this question, so to speak. That changes. Does it feel like, when you go into internal consulting, that the hard everyday life of a normal employee ends?
[15:42]Yes, pretty much. As an internal consultant, you live project by project. And that's a different way of thinking, it's more of a hunter culture. This project and that project, it's not a continuous pursuit of bigger things and more like a farmer weeding and mucking out or something. It's also a different mentality. And you have to be careful not to somehow underestimate the importance of the normal management or employee job. So it's sometimes not so easy to remain benevolent and realistic. Because when you take part in crisis workshops, you actually think, my God, you've been asleep or something. And something like that could happen in Backbiet. You have to be careful to remain objective. I can understand that. I'm even more aware of that as a mediator, but also as a counsellor. I'm usually gone on the third day and my colleagues then have to come to terms with the fact that they were still in conflict with the same employees or that they are still working on the implementation of the conflict, so they are still working on it and I don't have this form in my advisory function and I can imagine that this is also such a project for internal consultants, it becomes work. So you have workshops, but always in one go.
[17:03]
Challenges of internal consulting
[17:03]Yes, that's good too. One variant of internal counselling is that it's more like this.
[17:10]Maybe it's a bad metaphor, i.e. moving from the medical profession to the nursing profession in a hospital and already knowing that this department back there will never get it right. They need team development every year to make it work somehow, because one manager gets it right, the other does. It then becomes something compensatory, something more like nurturing, but not really changing. That's also legitimate. But you have to realise that it's actually a completely different business. And the counsellors actually prefer to be the doctors who come in now. And then someone is cured. Yes, something is cut open, something is cut off and it hurts, but it's pain and not prolonged suffering, something is ended. I find that a fitting comparison. Yes, because when I look at my role as an entrepreneur and I ask you, knowing that you have built up a company, a consulting firm, and have therefore more than proven your management skills, which you wanted to overshadow us a little, you realise that it's a different business to work on a task with employees over a longer period of time than a consulting project. Hey, you who listen to this podcast, don't forget to rate it and give feedback. Thank you very much and now we’ll continue.
[18:38]Yes, exactly. And I can remember many discussions as an internal employee together with external employees at a workshop where the external employee says, yes, mum, how did he get his job there or something. As an intern, I then said, yes, think about it, he's been there for five years or something. How did he manage that? He had to have something, otherwise he wouldn't have managed it. And sometimes that doesn't become clear in a workshop like this. I also know that when I tell others about problems in my company, they always immediately have a solution ready and ask themselves, why have you put up with this for so long? Or why have you let it slide for so long? Not with employees, but with questions. What software, what technology do you use, premises, etc.? And I say that there are only 24 hours in a day and I can't solve all the problems that arise immediately. And some are good in that they remain and then grow on their own. And that's a view that I really only got to know later, so to speak, not as a consultant.
[19:43]Yes, that's right. However, every department head has their strengths and weaknesses, which you may even have to compensate for. It's the same with consultants. They're not all that great either. They all have their sensitive areas, their weaknesses and their strengths. The question is always, how do you intuitively put it all together? In other words, the right problem or the right people with the right consultant. And it takes good intuition to somehow manage this match. I realise that I find that interesting, because I didn't have that in mind earlier. I thought we were talking about internal and external consulting today and a lot is written and thought about this distinction in the consulting literature. In fact, I find it much more exciting and important for the work of counselling, whether internal or external, to differentiate it from, as you said earlier, normal employees. But there is certainly still the group of people who work on problems with their team members on a permanent basis in their job, so to speak, and this cannot be dealt with in a workshop-style project, but has something like this, you're simply attached to the problem and the situation. And this differentiation seems to me to be even more important for good counselling work, to have this in mind.
[21:02]Yes, or maybe, I just thought that consultants are sometimes really funky, because I remember a lot of workshops. Funky, do you think? Yes, funky, really, where afterwards, after the workshop, where you've really talked turkey and reached an agreement, you have great posters about what you have to do now and who does what and so on, it looks wonderful. If you ask after six months, so what now? Maybe a quarter has changed and the rest has stayed the same. So this heroic optimism about change or something like that, it's completely empty in some cases. And consultants who are really able to stick with the process or the project and ensure that things are actually implemented or something like that are much more difficult.
[21:47]And some consultants don't like that at all. They see it as a personal offence to have worked for nothing. If you realise that nothing has changed, which is what was agreed. Yes, then it's once again the stupid ones somehow or other. And then you move on to the next customer. And that, of course, is the danger of an external party. Sometimes they can really carry their personal quirks from client to client and stage them until the client is too much. But then they have a new client again. So you can learn a lot from external people. But it's sometimes amazing how some consultants carry their personal weaknesses from client to client and don't do anything about them. Of course, this is perhaps more confrontational for the internal counsellor. In some cases, the in-house counsellor can't afford that. Let's take another look at internal and external staff. What are the dilemmas or dilemmas or bottlenecks that arise when you make the transition from employee to internal consultant and then to external consultant? Perhaps this first step within the company is to go into consulting. Can you really grasp this with dilemmas and quandaries or is it a liberation from the constraints of the job requirements?
[23:07]The main problem is really the change of role. Being a consultant is a different way of being in the world. Let me put it bluntly. And if I only do it half-heartedly, then I'm in internal competition. And that's not a good fit for a consultant. As a consultant, I have to be able to leave the success with the client and really be able to retreat to a consultant mentality and a consulting logic and develop it. So this change of role is the decisive factor. However, just as a farmer can sometimes do a bit of hunting and a hunter perhaps tends to his front garden, a consultant can also be a manager or an employee, he also has to have a budget and a team and so on. But it's important to get this clear role reversal right.
[24:00]
The works council as an internal advisory body
[23:57]Otherwise you'd better go back to your old job after two or three years. It won't work that way. I'm going to draw a parallel, or rather I'm going to include a task, an institutionalised task, so to speak, in this consideration, which I usually don't see highlighted in this topic. But I have a hunch that it should be included. And that is, although it is so obvious in the title, the so-called works council.
[24:22]That people are chosen from their job into a function to which they practically switch as an internal consultant, even on a temporary basis. And who, when you talk to them, actually go through such a role change, usually the hard way, so that they don't recognise the company. Because they suddenly gain an insight into contexts that they simply didn't have before. Would you say that this change to an advisory institution provided for by the Works Constitution Act is quite comparable or exactly the same as what you go through as an internal consultant when you move in this direction?
[25:08]Yes, there is something to it. But as a works council member, you're not necessarily also a consultant. It also has something to do with management and so on. But it's definitely a completely different perspective. It's more of an entrepreneurial perspective that you then have. We have also done some of these elaborate role plays. We also like to get the works council involved. And they were sometimes the hardest as entrepreneurs in these role plays. And we punished them with a strike. That was always a lot of fun. So this change of perspective was often achieved surprisingly quickly in a playful way. But the perspective is different. But every employee would like to have the opportunity to have this entrepreneurial perspective, to actually be able to put themselves in it. So I can confirm that there are certainly other requirements here too, because the expectations of the workforce are more prevalent, which you don't have as a traditional internal consultant.
[26:14]But you also have this electoral office in there. There's a kind of political element to it. I also have to act tactically for re-election, if that's what I want. And the entrepreneurial side is actually spread out on the desk in the form of information that you simply don't get as an employee otherwise. And then there really is a fundamental change of role. That's what I notice with works councils. So that would be another idea, so to speak, to bring the two, the classic, I could say, internal consultants and works councils together to discuss their experiences. That could be an interesting workshop. Yes, that's really true. And the analogy is also that the works council is re-elected or not.
[27:01]And the internal consultant may or may not be requested by this department again next year. So how much confrontation do I have at a workshop? Is that acceptable? Is it appreciated or do they just feel put down or something? Then I won't get a follow-up order. But am I being too nice to them now? The interns say he's nice, but he takes a lot of money for it. It's a real dilemma.
[27:29]
Transition to external consulting
[27:26]Works councils have this just as much as consultants, that's true. Finally, let's take a look at this threshold from internal consultant to external consultant. When I trained as a consultant, I had the impression that this was a very common model, just as you said before us. It was quite common for people to really leave after a few years, usually with perhaps follow-up contracts or agreed quotas with the old company. But what changes, so to speak, is not so much the point that I am now self-employed and an entrepreneur or at least a freelancer, but what changes for the consulting perspective if I then really advise other companies as an independent external consultant. It's a completely different business and you really have to acquire. As an internal consultant, if the business has a good reputation, the enquiries come in, we need a workshop, we need to develop a team, we need this and that, and then you do it.
[28:27]But you actually have to go to a customer you don't even know and listen to what they want.
[28:36]You have to ask the right questions and then develop a concept that is attractive to the customer, but at the same time is professionally responsible - that's a completely different matter. Now it's getting really serious and you have to get it right. And that's not so easy. But if you can do it, then you're in good external standing. However, some go on to become internal consultants by joining a consultancy firm or something like that, where they have less to do with acquisitions and concepts, so they are more like employees of the consultancy firm. That's still a very specific definition. How would you shift the focus there, so to speak? Many people are of the opinion that if I advise well, then I also acquire best. That the quality of the work also has a certain automatism, so to speak, that follow-ups or new orders come in accordingly. How did you experience that? Can you still say that today? Was that ever true?
[29:39]Yes, of course it's true that you should be able to give good advice, then hopefully you'll be recommended and get orders. But there's something very special about this acquisition situation, because there's a danger that you immediately come across as very competent. So I know my way around and I already have this and this and this and this. That's the theoretical concept. But the more competent you appear and the customers perhaps can't even follow up a bit, is this true, is this not true or something, they think, oh, so much expertise is dangerous. So if you present yourself as competent, you also have to present yourself as someone who doesn't completely mess up the name and who isn't happy if everything turns out completely differently afterwards. In other words, someone who is loyal to the management and tests what works. But that the clients can rely on the fact that we don't mess up the whole business and then we look like fools ourselves or something. So you can't say too much, you need a lot of advice.
[30:50]Yes, the way I see you. It's a miracle that you can hold on. It's not that easy. But that's the threshold. And the management usually has a very good intuition as to who to trust and who not to trust. Rolf, so what is important for consultants to know about this topic? Have we left anything out or completely lost sight of it because we have focussed on other things? I think that the topic is both very comprehensive, but ultimately also well framed in terms of these threshold values with the terms that we have used. So we've talked a lot about external parties and it's also true that an external party gets to know many companies, many sectors, if things go well, so they get a good overview and can make good comparisons. That's a very valuable skill.
[31:44]But I also have great respect for internal consultants who know how a company works and how it positions itself politically and how it works with external partners. It's a pretty nuanced game where you need a lot of sensitivity, but also a clear view. They are really worth their money. Or I appreciate everyone internally who has built up a basis of trust in order to do a really good job there. It's not an easy job.
[32:19]
Conclusion and outlook on counselling perspectives
[32:16]Yes, the is also mine Experience with the People. And there falls me but still a Point in, because you Yes also meanwhile very intensive external Consultant advises, supervise and accompany also perhaps the Transition from the internal Consultant to the external Consultant. With the Observer perspective this Developments from internal and external. Is the still times one new Perspective or is the really one whole classic external Consultancy, when you other Consultant for their external Counselling advise? Yes, in one Wise is it already different, because I can with External, the itself established have or like this.
[32:58]Can I already on it trust, that the one Situation at the Customers already whole good assess can and watch, like them then there get through. Although some look it then always still not so right. With internal is it very frequently so the Problem, may I that, may I the not, must I now loyal be, on itself would I what other make, but must I me customise and where learn I because that? The are then rather the Themes on middle Level with internal Consultants. With external Consultants, the can also frequently right good Confrontations tolerate. How I before so a little said have, some learn to his personal Quirks, the he from Customers to Customers still retained can, the need partly really good Confrontations, at on a other Level to come, at itself what to learn and then in turn better with the Customers to learn. The makes natural then special Joy, when something like that succeeds. Rolf, many Thanks to for these Insights in a very entertaining Conversation to this whole Counselling sauce from internal, external, external, external and what we everything controlled have. Me has it much Joy made.
[34:08]Me also and I hope, we were understood and it is useful. I use Yes and profit Yes in fact, when you me supervise and advises in mine Development, what already authoritative the Case was. Therefore were now also many Things again, the I so to speak from the own counselling Perspective belongs to have and say, yes, the true already. Exactly, these small Impulses, the then sometimes really exactly the Black meet. And you had it in the Subordinate clause said, this, so that them with the Counselling then better learn with both Customers. The is actually something, what I absolute confirm can. Therefore also in favour many Thanks to. Was me a Pleasure. Okay, Sascha. Rolf, until soon.
[34:55]Ciao. Ciao. The was my Conversation with Rolf Balling. This Paint have we us to the Topic internal and external Counselling maintain and the Differences, the Dilemmas, the Development dilemmas and Contradictions touched on, reprocessed. And for me was especially important, there again to listen and also again clear to get, through the Executions from Rolf, what it for one Labour is as Employee, as someone, the one Non-consulting job has, but one normal Job in Inverted commas. And what it even there still on Liabilities and on The challenges gives, the one not the simple so make leave, like the frequently from the external Perspective and from the Counselling perspective seems. The is hopefully clear become in this Podcast.
[35:55]Because the is not to underestimate and for us Consultant enormous important, with feed in in the Diagnosis, in the Analysis the Situation and then in the Hypothesis development and also natural with the Intervention formation. Many Thanks to, that you here again with thereby was at the Podcast Good through the Time. And when you it please has, then leave behind but with pleasure a Feedback on Apple Podcast or Spotify. One Five-star rating would be great and recommend the Podcast with pleasure continue. I remain with best Wishes. Until to the next Times. Comes good through the Time. I am Sascha Weigel, yours Host from INKOVEMA, the Institute for Conflict and Negotiation management in Leipzig and Partner for professional Mediation and Coaching training programmes.
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